8mm Forum: tracking issue 8 mm

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Posted by Edward Kolakowski (Member # 5686) on August 27, 2017, 08:26 AM:

I have difficulties in adjusting tracking when projecting some films. What can I do? Can anyone help ?
Thank you
Edward

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 27, 2017, 08:46 AM:

Hi Edward,

By tracking do you mean the ability to have the border between frames exactly at the top and bottom of the screen and not somewhere in the middle?

This is called framing and there is usually some knob you can twist to adjust it.

-for some reason they aren't always marked, but they should be there.

Which projector do you have?

Posted by Edward Kolakowski (Member # 5686) on August 27, 2017, 08:51 AM:

Hello Steve,
Yes, there is knob for it so I can move up and down the frame. However, sometimes there is not enough movement and the horizontal line appears all the time in some films.
ELMO SP-F
Thanks
Edward

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 27, 2017, 09:01 AM:

Sometimes you run into films that were never framed well in the first place. Outside certain limits it's more than the framing adjustment on the projector can compensate for.

-I have one particularly skeezy print where in the middle of a reel the line actually drifts all the way from the bottom up to the top in about 30 seconds (fortunately it stays there.). I guess if this was a thing it would be called "dynamic framing". (I don't show this one to audiences...)

You could use the elevation adjustment to try to move the line to the top or bottom, but then you'd lose part of the picture.

Posted by Melvin England (Member # 5270) on August 27, 2017, 12:01 PM:

Steve - I think Edward's problem may be a little more serious than a badly framed print not being able to be projected properly within the parameters of a projector's framing button. It is a topic that I have meant to bring up before now, so here is the opportunity...

I,too, have suffered this problem. I have several Sankyo Sound 700 projectors. What I have noticed that tends to happen is that as time goes on, a print that projected okay needs to be re framed and the framing knob is moved in a particular direction to compensate. Eventually, to frame correctly, the knob reaches the end of its range, it can't be turned any further and yet the print STILL can't be framed properly, even if the knob is then turned in the opposite direction as it still does not have enough thread at the other end of its range. It is as if the whole projection gate has somehow slipped, but I know it hasn't.

I hope the above makes some sort of sense. Edward, is this something like you have been experiencing?

Can Steve or any other member add anything further to my comments? Has this happened to anyone else? Is anyone able to offer any solutions / advice regarding the problem,please?

.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 27, 2017, 12:10 PM:

I'd agree completely, except he is saying that it's something that happens on some films, not all or most.

Now, you do run into situations where tolerances pile up additively and produce failures where if they piled up the other way you might not have a problem at all.

It's a good question: Does the framing move the aperture up and down symmetrically?

(Also: Is there a second projector at the scene?)

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 27, 2017, 12:22 PM:

Melvin, it is within the inherent design of the Sankyo models and others that the claw at the fulcrum point has to be adjusted as they age.

In other words it isn't only the framing knob that is responsible for adjusting this aspect of the projectors mechanism as things wear.

The framing knob is only "the users" final control and should be configured to centre line during manufacturing and subsequent servicing.

The Cam mechanisms on all of the later Super 8mm Sankyo models is a weak link and they are prone to excessive wear if not serviced regularly.

Posted by Melvin England (Member # 5270) on August 27, 2017, 12:47 PM:

Steve and Andrew - Thank you for your replies. I will also be interested to hear Edward's response.

Andrew - On inspection, I noticed that the claw mechanism ( and I am talking as a non technical person)is only supported on the rotating rocker(?) by a very hard,solid piece of white plastic, similar to a piece of chewing gum, which does become worn, lowers the claw, thus needing more compensation to the frame adjuster which then reaches the end of its thread creating the problem we are discussing. It appears such a silly piece of plastic is responsible for such a big problem.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 27, 2017, 02:34 PM:

Edward's Elmo SP-F is a dual-gauge projector, so the framing problem is exacerbated by this being so.
The frame line on regular 8 film bisects the perforations, whereas, Super 8 has a frame line mid way between its perfs. Therefore, in a dual gauge projector the framing control has to travel further than in a single gauge projector.
This may be OK if the films are correctly printed, but as Steve says, some of Edward's films may not be.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on August 27, 2017, 02:54 PM:

Yes Derann sold some prints as White Box Specials marked "out of rack" which meant they were hard to frame correctly and often on the limits of adjustment. If someone put these in a new box they would be impossible to detect.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 27, 2017, 03:46 PM:

There are some prints out there whose frames are printed out of correct alignment in relationship to their sprocket holes and for these, only the most flexible framing mechanisms with large amounts of adjustment will make it possible to frame them adequately.

On this machine if most of your projected prints appear this way, then the evidence does suggest that there will be wear to your follower (the chewing gum shaped part) or the nylon cam lobe or both.

There is adjustments at the pivot point or fulcrum of the claw to help but there comes a point in time where you are left with no other option than to change these parts if you wish to continue to run the projector.

On the Bauer studio series of machines, these have similar nylon wear parts to the Sankyo although I do believe from our professional service technicians that the Sankyo late Super 8mm machines wear particularly quickly.

The Bauer design allows the follower to be changed out fairly quickly and easily by mounting it to the arm so it clamps into a recess and then secures easily with a screw or two.

I am uncertain whether or not the Sankyo models have a similar design to allow this also to be the case with them.

In these days of 3D replacement part availability, no quality machine should be scrapped just for these reasons alone.
If the part does not already exist, often Edwin of Van Eck Video services will make a run of known wear part just from demand by the masses so even if the parts are not readily available, this becomes yet another option, come the time.

The reasons why the manufacturer's of many of the later machines chose to move to nylon as opposed to metal for these parts, was simply to reduce running noise on the machines.
Designs like the earlier ST 1200 did not use nylon for these parts and they tend to last a lifetime if lubricated and maintained well, however the trade off is that they tend to run far more noisily.

Reducing running noise of our machines became an aspect of a projectors design that was focused upon in far greater detail by the manufacturer's as Super 8mm projectors headed towards the 80's and was also more of an issue as customers were using their machines with microphones as recording facilities became ever increasingly more sophisticated and as people were editing more and more of their home movies soundtracks using their projectors recording facilities.

Posted by Edward Kolakowski (Member # 5686) on August 31, 2017, 05:56 AM:

Thank all of you responding to my issue. First of all when I use Super8 no issues at all.
With 8mm depends, I just tried some comercial film it works, then my own does not.
Horizontal line appears in the middle, moving knob up and down does not move horizontal line fully out of frame, still remains either just above the bottom or below the top of the frame.
I looked at Bauer with possible changing the plastick parts, but Elmo does not have any. Seems my Elmo looks very good almost new.
Edward

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 31, 2017, 06:31 AM:

Probably just the film itself then Edward. [Wink]

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