This is topic LED projector bulbs ? on the way. in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on December 21, 2017, 03:48 PM:
I noticed on my latest sales list from Steve Osbourne talk of an LED projector bulb possibly in the offing.

Does anyone know more please.

Are they just for the GS1200 or also the ST1200 etc ( 150 watt ) and even 12 volt 100 watt lamps.

If we could get a significant light upgrade with a cree led lamp etc on all machines be superb.

Thanks in anticipation.

Best Mark.
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on December 22, 2017, 02:48 AM:
LEDs seem to improve every year. My street is now lit by them instead of High Pressure Sodium vapour lamps. They also come in 2" round 12v versions that would fit into a projector (I have fitted one to a 16mm B&H for use on a small screen to check films & 8mm to take still photos from frames) so I have high hopes that soon these will be common.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on December 22, 2017, 08:11 AM:
What's encouraging here is many of the most common projection lamps are used in equipment that is still being manufactured today. For example one day a couple of years ago I was at work and I saw a very familiar looking box on a cart. I looked at it: it was an Osram EFR. I checked into it and it turns out they use them in microscopes. I think that both EFP and EFR are also used in that obnoxious light that the dentist shines in your face too.

The fact that these are still being put in new equipment is a big part of what keeps them cheap, and it makes them good candidates for LED equivalents.

The downside is the lamps that are made in much smaller quantities probably won't make the leap and may go extinct.

What would be nice is if they made lamps that were drop in replacements that made more light, but I think they will probably go for the same light with less electrical power.
Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on December 22, 2017, 04:37 PM:
Sadly, many fine, older projectors used the 8v 50w "spaceman" bulb and I can't see an affordable LED replacement being viable. Cheap as chips in their day, a replacement bulb now can cost more than the projector's worth.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on December 23, 2017, 05:18 AM:
The problem with the led lamp of any kind is that you need a lens in front of it to focus all the output. There are plenty of variations out there that would be better in the colour range much whiter light output, including the excellent range by cree, but all need a lens, and it needs to be a bulls eye lens, fitting all that into the projector housing would be a task. You can fit an hid lamp into any projector no matter what the original wattage was, but it needs to be incorporated into the original reflector, and positioned correctly within the reflector to focus all the output on the gate, it can be done because I've done it, if you want to know more pm me, I can help you with some of the tricky stuff, these reflectors are glass and need to carefully cut, tricky task.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on December 23, 2017, 05:27 AM:
Whats a HID lamp Paul.

I`ve seen them mentioned but not actually in the know myself.

Best Mark. Thanks.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on December 23, 2017, 06:50 AM:
Hi mark HID
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on December 23, 2017, 06:55 AM:
Hi mark HID, high intensity discharge lamp, same as the car type headlights, earlier version, same lamp BILL fits to the GS, but less wattage, 35 watts, not 150 watts. Its an arc lamp, using xenon gas, so burns brighter, much brighter than a filament lamp.
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on December 23, 2017, 09:47 AM:
As these bulbs dont run anywhere near as hot as our current bulbs would this effect the running of the machine, do projectors need to get up to a warm run to work properly?
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on December 23, 2017, 09:51 AM:
I’ve had one or two that change speed as they heat up, but they also drift in focus as the gate area gets heated by the lamp. This would be much steadier with an LED in place.
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on December 23, 2017, 10:36 AM:
Which lamp are you referring to Tom ?, the led lamp needs a lens to focus it, you would need to incorporate this into the side housing, but would still get some heat, I don't think there is a warm up time for the led, but there will be for the HID to get to brightness, although the existing fan would probably be good enough to keep it cool. I don't know about the heating up of the gate Steve, but I'm sure your correct, would it be any less with led, I don't know, I just think it would a task to get something suitable for all machines, where as the HID route could be retro fitted to any projector......
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on December 23, 2017, 01:21 PM:
Hi Paul thank you for the message.

The HID route sounds very interesting.

Might be a good way to help keep the hobby going making 100 watt machines that are a little lacking far better.

I`ll message back now.

Thanks Mark.
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on December 23, 2017, 02:11 PM:
Hi Paul, i was thinking that the standard A1/232 12v 150w (like all bulbs) gets very hot, the heat of these makes the whole projector warm/hot so with LED bulbs only getting warm by comparison, would the projector be at a disadvantage, i dont think im putting it into words very well. [Embarrassed] [Frown]
Posted by Jake Mayes (Member # 3292) on December 24, 2017, 08:46 AM:
My sankyo 702 projector has a 150w lamp, and they get HOT. An LED alternative of the right colour would be amazing. I have never had this happen on my projectors but it would also stop jammed film burning in the gate as well.

Would probably have a longer life, i have had my projector blow a lamp during a showing with friends luckily towards the end, without having a spare on hand [Wink] It would be a good idea as it would run cooler.
Posted by Adam Deierling (Member # 2307) on December 24, 2017, 09:04 AM:
Here is the article Steve Osborne sent me about the new bulbs Can anyone translate it from german???
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on December 24, 2017, 06:25 PM:
Thank You Adam, I hope this comes off and will be adaptable to other super 8 and or 16mm machines.

I have a serious cree LED torch and with 6 volts of power ( 4 x C 1.5 volt ) the distance and light of the beam beam is amazing.

Best Mark.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on December 25, 2017, 06:13 AM:
I believe Van Eck was also working on a LED conversion, but the film gets too white and you loose details I´ve heared..
Posted by Jose Artiles (Member # 471) on December 27, 2017, 09:54 AM:
I can read on the PDF file that the led will not give more power light,just the same as the esc lamp but with more natural colours due to the White light of the led.The Price for the conversión kit will be 200 euros (177,505GBP) or 238,165USD.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on December 27, 2017, 02:23 PM:
Thats enough information for me then thanks Jose.

Best Mark.
Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on January 02, 2018, 07:28 PM:
Here's the full translation, guys. And forgive me for raining on the parade, but no additional light, a color temperature bluer than sunlight, and the high cost all make me want to run the other way.


Cineworld-Technik App

LED instead of halogen for the Elmo: the "200W Power LED Kit" is coming!

Patrick van Thielens’ semi-professional solutions regarding the "Elmo GS1200" film projector have been reported several times in Cine 8-16. The Tinkerer is currently dealing with a problem that will eventually confront all projectors' owners: replacing conventional halogen lamps with the new LED technology.

Text & photos: Patrick van Thielen
Composition: Dr. Arne Bernd, Uwe Brengel

The "200W Power LED Kit" Set consists of a power supply and a cooled LED lamp with 200W light output. In many Super 8 and 16mm film projectors, the often installed "cold light" halogen lamps can now be replaced by the almost completely "cold light" from LEDs. The figure shows one of the first types of the new set with the example of a "Elmo GS/ST1200" projector; the newer version now has a cold light mirror flange, so no conversion is required in the projector. The kit from the Netherlands does not intend to bring more light onto the screen than the original lamp. The power supply and LED lamp are tuned in such a way that a significantly higher efficiency of the lamp is achieved, but there is no more light on the wall than the original. However, due to the higher color temperature of 6,500 kelvin (compared to 3,400 kelvin of halogen lamps) The new version provides a much better and natural color rendition of the projected images. The more yellow-colored halogen lamps aren’t exactly created for realistic film images. The "Power LED" shows a projection size of one meter of natural images - snow is white, sky is already blue. It creates a full, "saturated" illumination at the right angle of projection. So there is no "hot spot" on the screen. The Power LED kit works completely independently of the film projector through the “Exteme” power supply. Therefore, the power supply of the LED does not take place via the projector, but directly externally. The connection of the LED is placed outward to the projector housing. A complete technical description would be beyond the scope of the article. However, it is safe to know that with some technical understanding, the film projector can also be retrofitted with the "Power LED kit" by unpracticed hands and a maximum of two hours of time.

"Power LED" is currently still in the experimental test phase, so it is still not for sale. Van Thielen hopes to be able to offer his conversion kit from 2018 in the newly planned online shop for film materials and technology. The price is then to move around 200 euros.

The latest version of the "Reelporter 2400ft" (see article in Cine 8-16 Edition 26) will also be available in the shop, which will then be in three different variants. In addition, new large film reels for Super 8 and 16mm are in development. As soon as the shop starts or the new offers are available for purchase, we will report it.

Posted by Adam Deierling (Member # 2307) on January 02, 2018, 09:10 PM:
Lets not forget that xenon lamps are anywhere between 6k and 6.5k. The color temp of this LED conversion is right where it should be.

Also regarding light output...when I test a halogen gs1200 vs a xenon with my light meter the xenon is only marginally brighter. We perceive them to be brighter because of the color temp.

I am all in favor of the new LED tech. Its going to extend this hobby so long as the y can get the design right.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on January 03, 2018, 02:49 AM:
Interessting artical.

6500K (Kelvin) is right where I Calibrate the videoprojectors on with the ISF-Calibrations.
Video projectors tend to be on the 7000K or higher for giving more light output, but after calibration they are spot on.
When I started with 8mm again I was amazed how warm the lightoutput was, so I took my messure equipment and saw that it was only around 3500K. Not good at all.

Only,.. there is also the HID 150W conversionkit, which is also whither, but I believe with a higher brightness.
For the HID conversion I need to bring my projector away, while this LED version is just like replacing the Lamp.
The difference is that the LED conver
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on January 03, 2018, 03:01 AM:
If this kit will fit other projectors, there may be an noticeable difference vs a 100 watts lamp.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on January 03, 2018, 03:04 AM:
With the Bauer T610 keeping the gate open longer, it would give an increddible amount of light.
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on January 03, 2018, 03:33 AM:
I wonder if, as an LED doesn't fail early with being switched on and off (and does so instantaneously) the next step could be doing away with the shutter entirely and just have the lamp turn off during pull down and again to prevent flicker. Electronically timed from the drive and able to emulate 3 blade or 2 blade dependent on speed setting. If only they were still manufacturing projectors today!!!!
Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on January 03, 2018, 06:47 AM:
Interesting idea Brian, you can get strobes with adjustable flash settings, perhaps if the lamp could be linked in some way to the pulse sync circuit this could switch it on and off when a perf is detected, and this would keep pace with the film. The reed switch might not provide enough current to do this, but maybe a relay in a circuit could.....
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on January 03, 2018, 10:02 AM:
Digressing slightly from the subject, but relevant to Brian's posting.
I seem to remember a 35mm projector which had a pulse lamp and no shutter. I believe it was the Philips FP-20.
Has anybody worked on one?
Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on January 03, 2018, 02:06 PM:
I get very annoyed when I see color temp that's too blue, especially bluer than sunlight. It's one of the reasons why I hate how most HDTVs currently look. Remember, theatrical film prints had color timing to match the bluer Xenon light, and perhaps more importantly, the lighting and decor of the facility can be designed to match. My house has too many warm colors and warm lighting for me to like this idea. If it were around 5400K or a little less, the concept would please me more. Nothing else in nature is that blue, and I think it's lazy engineering to foist 6-7K on projection technology.
Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on January 10, 2018, 02:32 AM:
I just noticed the new LED type lights COB, been around a few years years but getting sorted and off the ground more now.

Any thoughts ?

Look promising. ght-Bulbs-Conversion-COB-36000LM-6000K-1pc-/362164704976?_trksid=p5731.m3795

Best Mark. /itm/2Pcs-G4-LED-Lamp-2W-DC-AC-12V-Energy-Saving-Mini-COB-Bulb-Lights-High-Quality/152852134107?hash=item2396b278db:g:0MYAAOSwOgdYy4WL

h ttps://

Or just put cob led in to ebay for a nosey.
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on January 10, 2018, 02:59 AM:
Pity there aren't any 6v side pointing LEDs (well I haven't seen any), they would be very suitable for editors.
Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on February 05, 2018, 05:57 PM:
Hi all! I'm following this thread with great attention, as well as other similar ones regarding LED replacements. My aim is to find one that suits the most regular, 12V 100W MR16 form factor ones. A quick search on Google probes that it's not an easy subject as one would expect, or I'm maybe doing the wrong search. Do these definitely exist? I don't mind having to order them from China and waiting a month or so, and even if they got lost in during its journey it would be worth the attempt as its not an expensive item. I wonder why I don't see any clear info about this on the forum, even with direct links to online stores where one would buy them [Razz]

I'm also doing my research locally. I mean - here we have plenty of these so-called "Chinese stores" where you can buy anything. They also have their typical lighting section, with plenty MR16 models. For a while I've been seeing replacements for the 50W 12V type, but that was all...
...but last week I happened to spot a couple of definitely new models - they were 8 and 9 W each, and advertised as 80 and 90 W equivalent respectively. Couldn't resist getting one for testing purposes. I finally got the 8 W model (advertised as 800 lm) because it was the only in white light. I knew in advance it wasn't going to be a proper replacement, but wanted to try.

It would almost fit into my projector, if it weren't because it lacks the little "flange" their halogen sisters have for keeping it in place. Anyway, I managed to get it in the right position for a while while testing. Certainly it makes like 10-20% more light than its 50 W halogen equivalent, but it's not suitable for proper projection, yet. But it makes me wonder if we are as close as it seems. I also like the nice white light it made, which made my testing 8mm B&W reel shine, giving a very clean image (if it weren't because it wasn't clear enough).

And almost nothing else. Well, I have to say that this bulb has a 160º light beam, and almost no leds in the center, so it worsens the condition.

I also though about some moding, mainly for placing more leds in the middle. Do you have any idea on how this would perform? If I could remove some leds from the borders and place them more close to the center, narrowing the beam, I'm sure I would get decent results.

Last thing is that, as expected, it doesn't get hot. Well, you can feel some sort of warmness if you touch it, but there's plenty margin until reaching, let's say, half the heat of a halogen.

PS: post edit in order to correct some mistakes due to falling asleep [Big Grin] . Also added some more info.

[ February 07, 2018, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Pere Pasqual ]
Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on February 07, 2018, 04:54 PM:
Just to boost this thread:

I don't know if it's allowed to post links to buying sites, but in my search for led replacements I'm very tempted on trying some of these ones being sold at chinese online stores.
After a huge amount of time researching, I found this: 22609.html#ENhp-en

There is a number of very similar products on that site, but I like this one the most dues to some factors:

- It has a lot of user reviews (currently some 260), the vast majority of them being very positive. Although they start from 2013 (if not upgraded, the product could be a bit "old").
- I read in some of them that they are successfully using them for halogen replacement (they don't specify if it's for a projector, though).
- The measurements seem to fit inside a standard projector.
- Reviews are very recent, so this probably mean it's a very recent new model.

So in this link you can buy a 10 piece pack (at least) of 15 W dimmable (that doesn't really mind) MR16 pure white, warm white or cool white bulbs, for about $20, with free shipping. Beam angle is 270º, though.

Do you think it's worth the attempt?

Also there are these ones: 59874.html#ENhp-en

They are 15 W too, but the bean angle is just 60º, very narrow so I understand it should work better for projectors. Price is slighty higher, but still less than $30 for a 10-piece pack. Reviews start from 2014 (much more less, about 45, but still a relevant number).
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on February 08, 2018, 12:51 AM:
For projection, you need the light coming from a small spot in the middle. So I believe you throw away a whole lot of brightnes that won't be used.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on February 08, 2018, 04:01 AM:
I agree with you Matthieu,

Something like that should make the job :

[URL= =sear] t=sear[/URL] chweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10152_10151_10065_10344_10068_10342_10343_10340_10341_10084_10083_10618_10305_10304_10307_10306_10302_10313_10059_5722311_10184_10534_100031_10103_10624_ 10623_10622_10621_10620_10142,searchweb201603_36,ppcSwitch_3&algo_expid=1ecb4bd4-46a1-49b8-abb8-2705f0603cc2-2&algo_pvid=1ecb4bd4-46a1-49b8-abb8-2705f0603cc2&transAbTest=ae803_5&pr iceBeautifyAB=0

Also, it is very important to install a very good driver do decrease "Flickering" phenomenon to almost zéro....

A condenser lens could be necessary too
Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on February 08, 2018, 03:53 PM:
This starts moving! [Big Grin]

Very interesting info, indeed. I'm very tempted to buy one of these. Which one do you thing would fit best for our purposes? Maybe the 10 W one? I see the "fordward voltage" for these ones is the closest to our machines: from 9 to 11 V, and luminous flux is about 1000 LM. Still a bit less than a halogen lamp (how many lumens do these emit? Maybe some 1500?), but starts looking interesting. Would that extre Volt burn our lamp or have any significant negative impact on it? What about the 20 W ones? They are rated for 30-34 V, so we would need some voltage regulator or so in order to get it worken. My electronic skills are very limited, though [Frown] , but I have some abilities with solder and making PCBs.

Also, I found this 60º lens for led: .1d4f5270mVXSov

Anyone willing to experiment? [Wink]
Posted by Adam Deierling (Member # 2307) on February 08, 2018, 04:00 PM:
Been down this road guys. I tried all configurations and more you guys haven't listed. The biggest problem with the LED is getting it to focus all of its light millimeters in front of it where the film gate is. You have to almost treat this like a xenon design where you have a big reflector to ounce the light into and focus it into a single point. Thats where the design of this new LED is interesting to me as they seem to have been able to do this.

Don't get me wrong, I have tried an m16 lamp that fit perfectly into the projector lap socket and it did project an image but it was not very bright. I have also tried 100w led chips which output upwards of 5k-10k lumens, nothing matches the original halogen. Again it comes down to focusing the light. You also have to have adequate cooling with LEDs this big as they get very hot.

I am sorry to say but buying an off the shelf led bulb isn't going to work here. A specific design has to be engineered to work properly. I think these guys in Germany are on the right track. Just be patient.
Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on February 15, 2018, 04:08 PM:
Thanks a lot for reporting, Adam. And please forgive my delay in participating.

I am interesting on which exact configurations have you tried, because I couldn't infere it 100% from your post. For instance, did you try the ones Phil Murat linked on his last post? And what about some kind of lens like the one I suggested?

If you haven't, as these are inexpensive items, I'd give them a try...


I am editing my own post because I want to add further questions and discoveries.

for instance, I see a lot of references on the net to some "CREE XML XM-L LED" that seem to be the ones used for high-lumen torches and so. If they can work with batteries with a very narrow angle and large distances, why shouldn't them work for projection?

A quick search shows that is easy to find cheap supplies for those on the typical stores:

Look at the power, current and lumen ratings of these. Also look at the shape of the light source itself and the dimensions of the full "chip". They assure they deliver about 1200 lumen. Power is 10 W and current is rated for 3.2-3.6V @ 3000 mA max (so I understand we would need some voltage regulator). Diamether of full PCB ranges from 12 to 20 mm, so we have plenty of space to fit them into a regular MR16 reflector...

Then they I found these new ones at a Spanish store, the biggest advantage being that they seem to be ready to work at 12 v (delivering about 1000 lm; more with more current):

Those ones, for 13-15v and delivering about 1500 lm:

In the same page you can see that there exist plenty of reflector for this model of led and other, too. Dimensions vary and I'm not sure which ones would fit better to our needs; in my measurements I see that classic MR16 are between some 42ish mm for internal diameter and about 50 mm for external. Here are some reflectors with similar dimensions; even more, on some pictures you can see the LED already mounted on them:

This one is rated for 5-10-20 W leds:

And finally, some optics. I don't know almost anything about how they work, but they state the angle is wider or narrower depending on the focal distance, from 22 to 65º:

There are plenty; these ones work between 25 to 30º wide, which looks very narrow to me, and are specific for those high luminosity "XM-L" leds (or "CREE XML"). To me it looks very "focusable":

It may look like advertising but it's just what I've found surfing the web. In another store's blog (, they have this little project of a "projector" with one of these tiny leds, with a couple of AA bateries. There is a 2 min video showing it and looks very promising:

Please excuse me for the big amount of links and messy information, but I'm really reluctant to believe that currently we cannot still fit one of these inside our old projectors and make them work. There should be someone with good knowledge of these and/or optics which could, well, enlighten us on the matter...

[ February 20, 2018, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Pere Pasqual ]
Posted by Adam Deierling (Member # 2307) on February 22, 2018, 10:25 AM:
I am confident that LED technology can work for our projectors but I have yet to figure out the right design. I have tried chips that are rated upwards of 6k-10k lumens and still not able to put more light on screen than the halogen. Its not a matter of fitting the LED in the projector its a matter of focusing the light. Ive spent too much money and time on this. I am no engineer so I will wait for someone smarter than me to figure it out.

I am not trying to discourage anyone from trying. I want you guys to experiment and see if you can figure it out. There is the potential to turn our halogen projectors into xenon equivalents that run on less power and longer lasting bulbs.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on February 22, 2018, 10:42 AM:
I know of people who make lightsaber props and are always searching for brighter LED's.
I myself have replika lightsabers that look as real as possible.

They are using Lenses for making the lightbeam more narrow.
You also nead a heatsink for the LED.
Here is a website that sells stuff they use:
Posted by Reid Baron (Member # 6357) on March 25, 2018, 07:16 PM:
Can anyone recommend a suitable replacement LED bulb for a basic editor / viewer, which uses a typical 10 Watt 6 Volt (G3) BA15S Single Contact Bayonet Mount incandescent bulb? The bulb temp should be about 3,000k, which would emit a good white light. Thanks.
Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on March 26, 2018, 10:27 AM:

May be this is for you :

[URL= ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3_10152_10151_10065_10344_10068_10342_10343_10340_10341_10696_10084_10083_10618_10305_10304_10307_10306_10302_5711211_10313_10059_10184_1053 4_100031_10103_10624_10623_10622_10621_10620,searchweb201603_25,ppcSwitch_5_ppcChannel&priceBeautifyAB=0]BA15S Led Conversion[/URL]


BA15S 6V Conversion

And, of course, only works with DC .....

Let us know
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on March 26, 2018, 03:57 PM:
I found this G4 12v LED in Clas Ohlson that looks promising. I have bought one but not tried a conversion yet.
Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 31) on March 26, 2018, 04:26 PM:
I am not trying to discourage anyone from trying. I want you guys to experiment and see if you can figure it out. There is the potential to turn our halogen projectors into xenon equivalents that run on less power and longer lasting bulbs.
I have also tried every combination of LED and lens,including a 8000 lumens output setup which was not nearly bright enough. The problen has already been mentioned the light from LED is not focused you would need a custom reflector and lens to capture and focus the light through our tiny S8 gate.

Best option is HID.
Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on April 17, 2018, 10:42 PM:

I found this G4 12v LED in Clas Ohlson that looks promising. I have bought one but not tried a conversion yet.

I don't know what is going to work, but it's easy to figure out in advance what won't, and this one won't, for obvious reasons. You can see it in the specs:

- Its luminous flux is 100 lm. That's 10% or less of a regular halogen lamp.
- Its power is 1.2 W. No matter how efficient it were, you can clearly imagine that's not going to equal the brightness of a 100 W one.
- There it says also "Equivalent to (incandescent bulb) 10 W". Halogen is far more brighter than an incandescent one at the same wattage, so go figure.

I think that if we are not able to discard these in advance, better refrain from attempting any further experiments. There are already a lot of "potential" candidates that are not going to work anyway to even lose money and effort in the obvious non-working ones...
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on April 22, 2018, 04:03 PM:
Sorry I didn't refer back to my earlier post, but this was for a replacement for a 10w editor bulb which is non halogen so it would be an equivalent power. The editor has no reflector, but does have a condenser lens.
Posted by Matthieu van der Sluis (Member # 6040) on April 23, 2018, 01:48 AM:
Ahh that's interessting indeed.
Let us know how it works.
For now I use van Ecks Halogeen version for my editor, which I think they convert themself.
Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on June 19, 2018, 09:22 AM:
I recently got a couple 100w 12v halogen bulbs and still cyclically stumble upon this issue.

Common sense just doesn't allow me to really believe that this cannot be relatively easy accomplished still in 2018. I've done a fair amount of extra googling and "research" and I've found some counter examples showing that it can be done. Some examples:

- Lego projector. This was already featured in this forum when it was brought to life... which was like 7 years ago! The relevant part here is that it uses an inexpensive flashlight as a light source.

The problem here is that neither a parts list nor detailed building instructions where ever published, and that would be very useful in further attempts, at least to get an idea of the minium lumen output of any flashlight to try. But here there go a couple links to inexpensive flashlights that are supposed to deliver a decent amount of light, they are single-chipped, focusable and, when taken apart from the battery casing, it looks like they would fit inside a projector. You can see many pictures of them in action in the ratings section, uploaded by customers, and they seem to deliver to proper amount of light:


- Light intensity comparisons for different flashlights. With pictures. This at least shows that the proper amount of light can be obtained by using those kind of flashlights, and they use regular batteries, so to my knowledge it should be possible to attach them to a DC power source, right?

I get lost when trying to do the calculations about the current (in Ampers) that a power source, or the projector itself, would need to provide to the led chip (in fact I don't know the ratings for a 100w 12v halogen lamp); can anyone give some hint on this? But I'm confident it should at least equal the one a couple of standard battteries provide...

These Instructables link may offer some light on that question, though.
Another similar one.

- Replacing an electronic projector bulb with a LED cheap one. Not the best link, but, again, showing that something similar to our goal can be sort of accomplished.

Finally, there's also quite few topics in lightning-related forums here and there (maybe these are the best places to ask for help); not the most useful ones but some hints and ideas can be collected from there: ggestions-on-how-to-replace-projector-bulb-with-an-LED

Waiting for your comments...
Posted by Adam Deierling (Member # 2307) on June 19, 2018, 09:33 AM:
The problem is not the availability of intense LEDs to use as projection lamps but the ability to focus the light onto the film frame. The LED flashlights are so intense and yet they are usually small diode LEDs that run off 6 AAs? How is this possible? Reflectors and lenses to focus the beam of light. You need a powerfull LED panel that will fit into a projector and figure out a way to focus it. I would suggest looking into fresnel lenses....
Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on June 19, 2018, 09:41 AM:
But have you seen the video of the Lego projector, Adam? It actually uses a flashlight, and it's a model from 7 years ago...
Posted by Adam Deierling (Member # 2307) on June 19, 2018, 09:44 AM:
Yes I have. Again, flashlights focus the light properly for projection. But you can't realistically mount a decent high powered LED flashlight in a GS-1200...
Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on June 19, 2018, 09:56 AM:

But you can't realistically mount a decent high powered LED flashlight in a GS-1200...

Again, I have to disagree. Have you taken a look at some of the flashlight links I've posted in my last message? The led chip + optics part is really small; less than the size of a 100w, 12v bulb (or a 150w, 24v).
Posted by Adam Deierling (Member # 2307) on June 19, 2018, 10:02 AM:
If you disassemble them, sure...but your not going to get anywhere near the light output you will need. That "Lego Projector" is only projecting a few feet. Try projecting 20 feet... But I can see you wont believe me until you see it with you own eyes. So go head and give it a try. I hope you prove me wrong because I would love to have an LED conversion...
Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on June 20, 2018, 01:51 AM:

If you disassemble them, sure...

Of course, my idea is to try whatever it works. I counted on that from the beginning. Among other reasons because there would be no way to fit a full-sized flashlight inside a projector without disassembling it. My idea is to permanently replace the original bulb without further notice or annoyance for the user, and to connect it to the tension/current source for the halogen bulb.


but your not going to get anywhere near the light output you will need. That "Lego Projector" is only projecting a few feet. Try projecting 20 feet...

Again, that project is from 7 years ago. LED lightning has evolved in an undescriptable way since them; you cannot compare. You have plenty of models claiming to output thousands of lumens for the price of a halogen bulb. Even if the real amount of light is fake and roughly half the stated, and considering that some percent of light is wasted due to unproper focusing, etc., now we have far more "light power" than 7 years ago.


But I can see you wont believe me until you see it with you own eyes. So go head and give it a try. I hope you prove me wrong because I would love to have an LED conversion...

I'm determined to at least try the flashlight mod. It looks like the cheapest and easiest attempt. And I don't want to bother or anything. It's that my curious mind finds the urge to at least make some attempt. Of course I confide in your vast experience, Adam, and I'm really taking it into account. It's just that I don't want to give up yet.

My 1st problem now is to decide between the vast amount of models and prizes. That needs some time. Any recommendations welcome!
Posted by Adam Deierling (Member # 2307) on June 20, 2018, 08:24 AM:
I wish you nothing but the best. Like I said, I want you (or someone) to succeed in figuring it out. I am simply done wasting money trying to figure out myself...
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on June 20, 2018, 05:08 PM:
I suspect really old projectors with condenser lenses rather than "spaceman" lamps or dichroric reflectors would take LED replacements easier.
Posted by Lee McCaffrey (Member # 6488) on June 21, 2018, 04:03 PM:
LG and Optoma/Coretronics have made a number of LED projectors, most of them use 3 high power LEDs and dichroic filters in order to generate the sequential RGB light required for the DMD chip to create the projected image. In the same way a colour wheel modulates the light output from the UHP lamp in conventional DLP projectors, the LEDs in an LED projector pulse rapidly in succession. The pulsing on/off nature allows the LEDs to be overdriven slightly to garner more light output.
I would imagine the LEDs used in these sorts of projectors would be the best match for a modified film projector, filtering as required to obtain the optimum colour spectrum. They could in theory also be programmed to operate as an optical 'shutter' in place of the mechanical shutter.
Digital DLP projectors typically use integrator rods (or lightpipes) to concentrate the light output onto the DMD which in some cases are similar in size to a super 8mm frame. As has been discussed before the problem with LEDs is focussing the light output onto such a small point. Philips has developed HLD (High Lumen Density) ColorSpark LEDs to overcome this 'entendue' effect. These are said to perform much better in digital projectors although as with anything new they are most likely much more expensive.
Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on June 28, 2018, 10:56 AM:
I think this is getting out of control.

Yeah Lee, maybe thos LEDs are wonderful, but I think we don't need to go that far. I've found another video of another person who modded an old projector into using a flashlight:

The description says that he's getting more light compared to the original bulb. And, again, that video is from 2014. We are in 2018 and technology has evolved considerable since then regarding LEDs and flashlights. What's seen in this video looks fairly easy to accomplish, and by using a 2000+ "claimed" lumens flashlight I think we should expect at least half that, nearly equal to the halogen rating.

Anyway, I already got one of those flat cheap 10 W LED and plan to attempt some experiments during this weekend. Moreover, I've asked for help in a Spanish LED flashlight forum (there are a number of these on the internet) and I've got already some valueable info. Take a look at these ones: -4000k-led-emitter mable-led-driver-circuit

The 1st one is an XHP50.2, and yeah, these are not "fake" lumens, but "real" ANSI measured ones; the 2nd one is an inexpensive driver which should work with out projectors' bulb 12 V input. The only missing piece is a fan and, maybe, a lens. After some quick googling I found that they at least seem to exist and are suitable for this model of LED, with really narrow beam angles. I have yet to find where to buy them, but let's got step by step: 1st with the flat 10 W LED, then with the XHP50.2 without a lens, and see what happens.

Last but not least: looks like out-of-the-box ready replacements are starting to make their appearance. I cannot remember if we've already talked of these ones: gh-lumen-CREE-MR16-LED-spot-light-AC-DC-12V-6W-9W-12W-15W-COB-High/210139_32301397267.html

The one from the left seems almost the needed amount (they say it's a proper replacement for 70 W halogens, and claimed to produce nearly 900 lm), but some kind of of mod should be done in order to mount them inside a projector as there are longer. But you can see they are from the proper connection and tension (12 V DC), and look like our old friend dichroic ones with their and properly "condensed" light beam. They deserve a try at least.
Posted by Lee McCaffrey (Member # 6488) on June 28, 2018, 05:32 PM:
Pere, I wasn't trying to derail the thread or suggest using those particular LEDs, just highlighting what is currently being used in commercial LED projector offerings, and wondering if the principles could be applied to our film projectors.
I agree with you that the most important thing for now is getting something that works, and works well, especially for the projectors out there for which new lamps are becoming scarce/obsolete. The cheaper running costs and longer life would be an extra bonus! Good luck with the trials.
Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on June 29, 2018, 06:18 AM:
Don't worry, Lee. Of course I understand the purpose of your message, and it's very important to be aware of the current state-of-the-art available techonology.

That said, my goal is to try to get results with the already, afordable, available technology, which I suspect is more than enough to achieve, at least, the same performance that with the old halogen bulbs.

I've gone one step forward from my previous message and, instead of trying with XHP50.2, I've already ordered one of these:

That's a Cree XHP70.2 6500K LED, capable of outputting up to ¡4292! lumen, with an emitting surface of 7x7 mm, which is slightly more than the size of a 5.79 x 4.01 mm super 8 frame dimensions. Even with a loss of, let's say, 50% light (to exaggerate things to a extreme worst case), that should clearly outperform the lumen amount of an halogen. I've already found 5º narrow focusing lenses on eBay suitable for these type of lead (my goal was to try to use 3º ones, but haven't found any of these yet). I'm not sure if they will be really needed, but due to their cheapness I want to try them anyway to see if it makes a difference.

Now it's just a matter of time to get them and try.

Adam, have you tried any of these leds already?

PS: this is the companion driver I've also ordered

which, with it's maximum of 4500 mA, should deliver a bit less than the theoretical maximum rating, but plenty of them anyway.
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on June 29, 2018, 07:37 AM:
That lamp looks like it has a lens on it already, it would be interesting to see how the beam spreads from that (ie if it concentrates first then spreads).

Good luck with your project and don't forget the heat sink for the chip.
Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 31) on June 29, 2018, 07:38 AM:
I have tried several Cree drivers/LED clusters much brighter than what is mentioned here including several flashlights. Unfortunately most of the light does not make it through the film gate. You will need some sort of reflector to capture and redirect the light. I have tried several but have yet to find the right combo.

In theory LED makes sense but of all the alternative light source options avail this is probably the hardest to implement properly. We know it can be done because there are several video projector manufactures offering RGB LED projectors with enough light output to drive a large screen but they have a complicated light path with several custom optics between the LED and lens. Due to the compact nature of S8 projection we have very limited space between the lamp and lens to work with.

It may be more efficient to build a external light box where you can work with the brightest LED cluster and feed the projector with a two foot fiber optic cable, no heat at the projector. There is light loss due to using the fiber optic but it is easily over come if using a brighter LED. The fiber optic is point source and more efficient at delivering the light to the film gate. You now have room to add an optic if need be. Cinema laser projectors are using this method.
Posted by Pere Pasqual (Member # 5906) on July 02, 2018, 02:47 AM:

That lamp looks like it has a lens on it already

I think it's not a lens at all; they call that a "dome"; apparently it's featured in most led chips, and it seems to have some effect in the "halo" or difussion of the projected light; in fact, I've seen they sometimes apply some "mod" to them called "dedoming" - looks like they get some extra amount of light by doing this. But who knows - I haven't investigated it deeply (and probably won't do).


I have tried several Cree drivers/LED clusters much brighter than what is mentioned here including several flashlights. Unfortunately most of the light does not make it through the film gate. You will need some sort of reflector to capture and redirect the light. I have tried several but have yet to find the right combo.

Maybe the difference is that what I'm attempting here is not a cluster, but a single chip, nearly the size of a 8mm gate, which claims to deliver the stated amount of light. That makes a difference from the usual cluster/array of leds.

And also, as I've said previously, I've ordered a 5º lens also. Looks narrow enough to me. I'm not sure if I can use both a lens and a reflector at the same time with this arrangement. I'll see when I have it in my hands.


It may be more efficient to build a external light box where you can work with the brightest LED cluster and feed the projector with a two foot fiber optic cable

No idea on how this works. I think this is completely out of my scope...

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