This is topic The dreaded "black" leader ... in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 11, 2018, 11:01 AM:
I don't know if you folks have run across this problem, but there is a certain jet black "leader" that was sold years ago, with no printed image on it, and it was used as leader, at times on films ...

... but there are a LOT of projector that just do not like this leader, no matter how well you trim the beginning. Only one of my projectors will actually thread this (Eumig 926), but all my other projector will either grind it up or just reject it.

I wonder if it's because it is excessively thin film stock?

At any rate, I've been going through my collection and getting rid of it in favor of the good ole thick white leader.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on July 11, 2018, 12:01 PM:
I suggest that any leader used for auto-threading should be fairly thick to withstand all the curves, rollers and sprockets which it meets.
Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on July 11, 2018, 12:48 PM:
A few years back Neumade was having trouble using a worn out slitter and perforator machine. Not long before they stopped the production of the Fiesta leaders, some rolls were known to be too wide-or just a fraction wider than true 8mm. Confirmation of this is by checking the splice joins. If your Ciro press down to trim blade is working properly you will note the black leader is trimmed narrower at the splice but wider outside the splice.

You may have some of this bad fiesta leader and you are correct by replacing it.

Also it is important to understand that some film print leader will act erratically based on colder or warmer weather Just like in the winter when you feel that chill through the bone and body parts don’t move the way they should all of this can add up to a simple jam through the film gate.

Having dealt with these problems myself the one type of leader that never seems to fail no matter what time of the year is good old scrap polyester from an old faded unwatchable print just cut how much you need and know where you are before you turn the lamp on

White or black I have always had trouble Thick or thin with acetate leaders using autoload and various projector models.

In a perfect world they would have never made autoload super eight projectors and in that respect we could have perfect control on how the leader was threaded and where.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on July 11, 2018, 08:17 PM:
Fiesta leader becomes brittle and absolutely shrinks over time. If anyone has any of it at this point, it is likely beyond use except perhaps as tail leader (where it doesn't really matter if it breaks or jams as the reel is over).
Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on July 17, 2018, 04:21 PM:
Pretty much any time I have a problem with stuff like this, it's because the holes are punched incorrectly (e.g., too close to the edge) or are spaced incorrectly or badly shrunken. This is very easy to check: Super 8 is supposed to have 72 frames per foot, Standard 8 is 80, and 16mm 40. Get out a ruler and count! Most projectors won't tolerate more than a 2% error in this department, whereas a 2% error in width, particularly if shrunken, is no big deal.

But yes, there's almost no Neumade leader left in my collection, and when I find more, I get rid of it.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 19, 2018, 10:44 AM:
I've really never thought about the "shrinkage" issue, (that reminds me of a Seinfeld episode, for some very odd reason [Smile] ),
but that it quite interesting!
Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on July 19, 2018, 11:48 AM:
This is a good example of why I am so proud to have this hobby. Every time there is a nail in the coffin of super 8 we find some way of working it out.

Only once did it happen and I still to this day have not found a suitable cure.

That was the day when Derann closed their doors for the final time.

Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on July 19, 2018, 06:32 PM:
My home movies were returned, after processing, with enough white leader attached for the film to make it through the projector before the action started. Commercial films didn't use leader as there was usually several feet of film before the start of the feature. Just wondering why scrap cine film couldn't be used as leader.
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on July 19, 2018, 08:50 PM:
It can! I believe that is what Chip uses for his films.
Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on July 19, 2018, 09:04 PM:
Thank you very much Paul for the vote of confidence because he is correct if you read my original post dated July 11 you will see in the fourth paragraph I mentioned this very same thing and it works great if you have a feature that is so horrible to watch due to color fade But the print is in very good physical condition otherwise then the entire print could be cut up for is much leader as you need.

Some of you would probably hate this idea but it’s just another way of recycling plastic material when it is still good enough to use for something else . Who would’ve thought with Super 8mm We can enjoy our shows and protect the planet at the same time
Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on July 20, 2018, 12:16 AM:
And if you dump several feet of film into a strong solution of water with bleach addded, it will become clear leader!

Not that I've ever done that.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 20, 2018, 11:53 AM:
Posted by Will Trenfield (Member # 5321) on July 20, 2018, 04:56 PM:
That's very interesting about recycling scrap film. Kodak Std 8 white acetate is on offer with eBay for up to £17.99 (nearly $24) for a 50' reel.
Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on July 20, 2018, 05:29 PM:
Another way to go is to use outdated unprocessed camera stock - just rip it out of a cartridge! There's lots of that on eBay MUCH cheaper than buying acetate leader.

The only trouble with that is if there's carbon black remjet on the back of the film as opposed to under the emulsion. That stuff comes off too easily and you don't want it accumulating in a projector. It soaks and wipes off with water, however. Some films have this, others (like Kodachrome) don't.
Posted by Joseph Banfield (Member # 2082) on September 04, 2018, 06:56 AM:
Yes, you can take any pieces of film and submerge them in bleach and within five minutes or less you have perfectly clear leader with absolutely no trace of a former image. I have used this process for years as it is a way to recycle film that would otherwise be tossed out. The secondary benefit of using clear leader at both heads and tails of the film is that you know in an instand when it is time to clean the film gate!
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 04, 2018, 11:16 AM:
I always thought that this stuff was un-processed (at a film lab), home movie film stock but yes, it is actual super thin black leader.
Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on September 04, 2018, 11:40 AM:
Hollywood film supplies super 8 black leader
75 bucks for 1000 feet including postage brand new
I got some recently and it’s very good
Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on September 06, 2018, 09:41 PM:
I'm not a fan of "painted" leader.

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