This is topic Star Wars Ken vs. Marketing. in forum 8mm Print Reviews at 8mm Forum.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 24, 2005, 10:04 AM:
Since I was recently lucky enough to find a really nice Marketing Films version of Star Wars (which I have been trying to find for ages!) via our generous friend Andreas at www.movies-and-sound.com a couple of people have asked what the differences are between the Ken Films version and the Marketing.
Well despite the obvious one that the Marketing is in German there are lots and lots of differences!
Here goes (and sorry in adavnce for being a complete Star Wars "anorak" with this!)...
Ken released Star Wars in two separate 400ft versions which could be nicely intercut to form a half hour version. Marketing released a 400ft version and a 200ft version which could be spliced straight togther.
So which is better?
The Ken Pt. 1 starts off well, with a 20th Century Fox logo and the complete Fox fanfare with "A Lucasfilm Ltd" and then into the main title with a brief voice over to replace the intro titles. The the fabulous opening shot of the star destroyer sprawling overhead. This shot is actually printed in 'scope to include the whole image! If you haven't seen Derann's 'scope feature, stick a 'scope lens infront of this shot to see what you're missing!
The Marketing version doesn't fare as well initially. It has some extra music over a Marketing Films logo, but a shorter Fox logo and a rather annoying voice over which continues all the way through the opening battle scenes. But then it comes into it's own! There are more intial shots of the droids inside the escaping rebel ship and a much longer opening battle scene in the ship's corridors.
The Ken version condenses this action and moves more swiftly to the arrival of Darth Vader.
The Ken then moves quickly through the scenes of Leia giving R2-D2 the secret plans whilst the Marketing scores again by including much more of this scene, with C3PO watching them from the doorway.
But then it's the Ken version which comes into it's own. Here we see the capture of the rebels and Vader's questioning of the rebel soldier whose neck Vader stretches! This continues with the droids arguing about using the escape pod before blasting off for Tatooine. Next we have Vader questioning Leia about the stolen plans and the following conversation with Vader's henchman about holding her captive and finally the revealtion that an escape pod has been allowed to escape. Very coherent, story wise.
The Marketing versions shows the escape pod blasting off with the droids inside, but chooses to lose everything else. It does make up some points though by including the scene where Leia is actually captured as the stormtroopers fire a stun ray at her which isn't in the Ken.
On tatooine, the Ken version sees R2 being fired upon by the Jawas and toppling over, but the Marketing version is far superior here. We see much more of R2 wandering about as the Jawas plan their attack and R2 being loaded into the sandcrawler. This continues with a bemused R2 inside the sandcrawler and his re-uniting with C3PO.
Both version now move straight to the farm with Uncle Owen buying C3PO and R2. Pros and cons here! The Marketing includes the little argument between Luke and his uncle over doing his chores but then moves straight to Luke taking the droids inside. The Ken version cuts out the argument but has the scene with the red R2 unit exploding and C3P0 persuading Luke and his uncle to buy R2D2 instead.
Both the original Ken Pt.1 and the Marketing then move onto Luke and Ben Kenobi at Ben's home. If you have the Ken Pt.2, however, this is where it starts, with the scenes of Luke cleaning the droids and discovering the hidden message from Princess Leia. Setting off across the dunes to find Ben Kenobi, Luke is attacked by the sandpeople and left for dead before being discovered by Ben.
"The sandpeople are easily startled but will soon be back and in greater numbers", proclaims Ben. We then cut to a shot of Luke's speeder zooming off into the distance. This shot is actually the group heading for Mos Eisley, but it adds a bit of continuity before cutting back to the Ken Pt.1 and the scene at Ben's home.
The Ken version wins out here, with a longer scene of Ben telling Luke about his father before moving onto the explanation of the force and the viewing of Leia's message. The Marketing is shorter, begining with the explanation of the force.
The real gem to find here is the Ken 200ft version. It opens with this scene, but has Ben giving Luke his father's light sabre and Luke waving it around! It also has more at the end of the scene with Luke protesting about going to Alderaan with Ben!
The Ken Pt.2 takes over now with our heroes arriving at Mos Eisley, meeting Han Solo and Chebacca and escaping from Tatooine. The Ken editors do a really nice job of condensing this action, with plenty of shots of the menagerie that is the cantina bar and moving swiftly, but not too abruptly from Han Solo's introduction to the escape of the Millenium Falcon under fire from the Imperial troops. It continues with an uncut scene of the Falcon escaping the looming star destroyers and leaping into hyperspace. Moving straight to the death star, the interogation of Leia by Grand Moff Tarkin and the resulting destruction of Alderaan, this version then moves straight to the Falcon being tractor beamed into the death star and Tarkin and Vader being informed. "They must be trying to return the stolen plans to the princess, she may yet be of some use to us!", proclaims vader.
Back to the Ken Pt.1 and Marketing now. A star destroyer approaches the death star and we're straight into our heroes dressed as stormtroopers in the elevator with Chewbacca. I don't know which editor copied which, but this is one the less convincing plot jumps in both versions! I wish one of them could have found some addional scenes to help this make more sense!
Moving on, our heroes blast the prisoner block control room to bits. This is a great scene because it includes all the original laser blast "body hits" that Lucas cut out in later versions claiming that they were too violent!
The Ken version scores badly here, with Han telling Luke to find the princess whilst he "holds them here", then cutting straight to Luke with Leia proclaiming, "I'm Luke Sywalker, I'm here to rescue you!". The Marketing version instead includes Han's hilarious conversation with the control room and Leia's comments to Luke, "aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper!".
The Ken then moves straight to the stormtroopers blasting in and a nice but truncated version of our heroes trapped in the cell bay tunnel. The Marketing wins hands down now by moving from Luke freeing Leia to the scene with Tarkin and Vader discussing Kenobi's presence on the death star, then moving back to the complete scene of our heroe's battle in the cell bay corridor, including Luke talking to C3PO via the intercom and all of the banter between them.
Next, the real gem of the Marketing version; the trash compactor scene! This is cut slightly to exclude Luke being attacked by the huge worm, but is otherwise intact, with Han nearly killing everyone by firing at the "magnetically sealed door" and the droids saving the day by closing down the trash compactor just as our heroes are about to become "a lot thinner!". The Ken version simply cuts away as Han prepares to blast the door.
Next the Ken version has Ben climbing onto the tractor beam control unit and shutting it down. The Marketing version is the same and this is where the second 200ft extract begins. It does include an extra shot of Ben, light sabre at the ready, as he approaches the tractor beam corridor.
Now another gem from the marketing version; our heroes in the corridor drying themselves off after the trash compactor ordeal and the ribbing of Han by Leia.
Both versions move on to our heroes finding the Falcon and making contact with the droids before Han's crazy persuit of the stormtroopers into a dead end corridor. A extra shot of Han fleeing the troopers and Luke and Leia being fired upon looks promising, but then the Marketing loses lots of points by cutting out Luke and Leia's daring swing across the chasm! This is all included by the Ken editors. To make up for this, the Marketing version does includes the scene where Chewbaccca and Han narrowly escape through the closing blast door.
Now the light sabre duel between Vader and Obi-Wan-Kenobi! Well, top scores to Marketing again here, with a couple of extra shots leading into the duel and the complete banter between Darth and Ben, "If you strike me down...", etc. which is cut from the Ken version.
Next the moment that neither version can avoid! The absolutely awful, but contractualy required abscence of Ben's death! Well, faced with cutting one of the most pivotal moments of the movie, neither version fares well, but the Marketing version nudges slightly ahead by including Ben's last knowing smile at Vader which is cut by Ken.
So our heroes are off. The Ken Pt.2 and the 200ft version offer a couple of extra shots of Chewy and Han at the Falcon's controls which can be spliced into the Ken Pt.1 here. These are included in the Marketing version, but then the Marketing version messes up by cutting straight to a shot of the Falcon flying past, whereas the Ken version actually shows the Falcon moving away from the death star.
Into the Tie-fighter battle! The Ken Pt.1 cuts straight to Luke at the turret gun preparing for battle. The Marketing scores higher here with extra intro shots of Han telling Luke, "We're not out of this yet", and the climb into the gun turrets. Another gem can be found from the Ken 200ft version here with extra shots of Luke in moarning as Leia and the droids offer comfort. At least these extra shots show that Luke is the least bit bothered that Ben isn't with them and helps make some sense of his sudden disapperance on the death star!!!
The tie-fighter battle is complete in all versions and as our heroes congratulate each other and the falcon zooms off into the distance, the Marketing and Ken Pt.1 draw to a close. Ken offer a couple of titles and fade out music whereas Marketing just fade out to black.
The Ken Pt.2 saves the day now by offering another 10 minutes of the death star persuing the falcon to the rebel base and a really nicely condensed version of the death star attack. Lots of those terrific original 1977 special-effects and none of the digitally re-vamped shots found in the 1997 re-releases! It wraps up well with a shortened version of the awards ceremony at the end and a brief selection of original end titles with fading out music.
I think the Ken Pt.1 version probably makes more sense story wise, even compared to the full Marketing version, but of course loses a lot of action and humour due to it's shorter running time. The Ken editors obviously saw the later Pt.2 release as an opportunity to enhance the story told in Pt.1 since the two are so easily and logically intercut. Of course the real saviour of Pt.2 for all versions is the final death star battle.
Print wise, Ken Pt.1 is nice and sharp if a little grainy and slightly too light. Still much better than average for it's day. Unfortunatley my copy is going a little pink. The 200ft Ken version looks similar but considering the noticeable negative dirt on my copy, probably saw the most print runs! Pt.2 is sadly not as good, with a much softer image and more grain, but still looks good during those final effects-filled battle scenes. The Marketing is somewhere between the two in terms of definition but much less grainy and the contrast is also superior. The colour is unusal. It is much more saturated than the Ken prints and personally I like it, but it isn't entirely natural (Chewbacca looks more orange than brown!) It might also be worth noting that if you plan to intercut the two versions that the Marketing print is on very thin stock (all 30 mins. fits on a 400ft spool easily) so you'd probably have to stay by the focus!
Sound on all three versions is clear, with the Ken Pt.2 taking the prize for the richest recording. Oddly, the sound mix seems different on the Marketing version. Of course the dialogue is German, but the effects track definatley seems to mixed louder, so that the music is less pronounced than on the American tracks. Odd. Still, if you were going to cut them together you'd be having lots of fun re-recording the sound anyway!
That's all folks. Do I get the prize for the longest post? Sorry again non-Star Wars fans.
Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on July 24, 2005, 10:46 AM:
Terrific review and cut by cut guide to putting it all together. I remember how impressed my friends were back then that I actually could show Star Wars at home!
Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 25, 2005, 12:19 AM:
That was more than what I had ever expected,and greatly satisfying.
I had to read it several times, and it was if I was watching the digests again and again.
Thank you very much.
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on July 25, 2005, 03:47 AM:
Rob, fantastic job!
I found the Derann full version a while ago (stunning scope print) but I'm still reluctant to let go of my digests and extracts... Your review convinced me into keeping them a little longer.
Posted by Andreas Eggeling (Member # 105) on July 25, 2005, 04:01 PM:
Fantastic review Rob!!!!!
Now I looking for the 1st Ken Extract to extend my own selected scene edition, also the 200 footer from Ken.
Have to mention, that the first marketing Star Wars prints are made on normal prestriped Kodak or AGFA acetate filmstock too, which are better for intercuting with the Kens to prevent problems with the focus ......
"Star Wars" was marketing films most sold 8mm title.
[ July 26, 2005, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: Andreas Eggeling ]
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 26, 2005, 11:35 AM:
Thanks for the nice feedback everyone.
Michael had asked me for a comparison of the two versions, so I'm especially glad that he's pleased.
Andreas, thanks again for my excellent Marketing copy and freebies, it was a real pleasure to deal with you. Those original Marketing boxes in perfect condition are now one of my most prized possessions!
Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on July 28, 2005, 03:02 AM:
Rob, send that in to Derann will you. That's just the sort of article required for "Film for the Collector". There are plenty of other collectors besides us on here that will enjoy reading it.
Now what ever happened to "The Raiders Curse"?
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 28, 2005, 06:31 AM:
John, "The Curse of Raiders" is still a work in progress and I haven't forgotten about it (incidently, we moved house recently and having set up the new bigger, better cinema, "Raiders" was one of the first films on; you should hear that truck in the chase sequence rumble from the rear surrounds toward the screen! The sound just seems to get better and better!)
One problem is that when I started writing it I went all the way back to 1982 with my first 400ft copy (that's when the curse started!) and it brought back so many memories that I ended up with more of a mini-novel which would bore the pants off everyone.
Needs finishing off and severe editing, but I promise to do it!!!
Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on August 02, 2005, 10:51 AM:
Ok, what is 'Curse of the Raiders'?
Is it another Ken vs. Marketing digest war?
Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on August 03, 2005, 05:37 AM:
It's an amazing story Michael of the trials and tribulations of Rob getting a duff copy of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" on any format he purchased.
The story culminates in me trying to re-record his excellent 'Scope Super 8 print and getting the same 'wow' and 'flutter' he'd had at every attempt to get a decent recording. We got it pretty much right in the end - it just took about 8 hours longer than expected!
The whole story is a never ending catalogue of cock-ups and unbelievable happenings and I've been hassling Rob to get it in print ever since he visited. Perhaps we should make him read it out at the 50th!!!
Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on August 03, 2005, 03:22 PM:
It makes for a good story, and something to learn.
How about it Rob? I'd love to hear it too.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on August 05, 2005, 04:43 AM:
John, I promise to finish it as long as I don't have to read it out!!!
Michael, "Raiders" has to be my favourite movie but John is absolutely right; ever since my first 400ft copy I've had problems that just haven't happened with any other film/video/dvd. It really became quite spooky! Must be the power of the Ark!
The story does have a happy ending though. My treasured full length print now has the best soundtrack of all my films thanks to John's generosity, know-how and sheer dedication to the re-recording task.
But John was a witness to the "curse". Things went wrong on that day that I understand hadn't gone wrong before or since "Raiders" went near his GS1200 and sync gear. Honestly; spooky!
You should hear the perfect soundtrack belt out now though! John recorded it just over a year ago now and "Raiders" has had lots and lots of great screenings...and it hasn't spontaneously burst into flames or anything...yet
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on August 05, 2005, 10:58 AM:
Doctor Young, as you can see, there is nothing you can possess that Raiders cannot take away...
Too bad you don't speak Ovitos...
Maybe that would help!
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on August 05, 2005, 05:02 PM:
"Too bad the Hovitos don't know you the way I do, super 8!"
Posted by Andreas Eggeling (Member # 105) on August 05, 2005, 05:56 PM:
..... ????? (H)ovitos? ??????
Never heard about? What´s this?
Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on August 05, 2005, 09:06 PM:
I was asking myself the same question, Andreas, until a Google search revealed the Hovitos are characters in the film. It appears I have to watch it again.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on August 06, 2005, 03:37 PM:
Oh yes, Jan, and again...and again...and again...
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 11, 2005, 10:32 PM:
Hey getting back to Star Wars, Even though I also got the full feature scope edition of it, I decided to keep my 400ft. scope part 2, which still has amazingly good color. Alas, the sharpness isn't anywhere near the Derann feature, (everybody else notice that?), but for an "archival scope super 8", it's pretty darn good!! By the way, did FOX or Marketing ever release a Part 1 scope 400ft digest? I have never seen one anywhere!
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on December 10, 2005, 04:13 AM:
This is an old thread but I couldn't resist freshening it up...
I picked up yet another Star Wars book in Tokyo two weeks ago and, voilà, one of the page is showing an ad for the japanese release of SW in super 8 (by Fuji).
Thought you might like to see it.
Bigger version here.
Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on December 10, 2005, 11:21 AM:
LOL, these Japanese characters just kill me everytime. If you glance at that image just right it looks like R2D2 spouting off a long line of curses and, uh, mature language.
Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on February 17, 2011, 09:52 PM:
Wow what a review Rob!!!! Hey it takes me back to Doug . I was the only one in those days that could show Star Wars out side of the theatre in a Beach Park in Hawaii on a white sheet. Those were the days I was the God on the beach of movies!My Star Wars 200 and 2X400 pT, 1 and 2 still hold up the color till this day. So I'm glad I still have them since that time.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on February 20, 2011, 01:30 PM:
You're a lucky man indeed to have Pt. 1 with good colour!
Most of them have turned pink sadly
[ June 27, 2011, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Rob Young. ]
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on June 27, 2011, 12:28 PM:
Dragging this one up yet again!!!
I knew of the existence of the six ie international versions but hadn't seen these covers...
Again, thanks to Jean-Marc, we know of the Fuji Films version, but just look at that box in full colour!
Must have...must have...
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on June 27, 2011, 12:36 PM:
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 27, 2011, 01:23 PM:
Great to see this topic back up!
In fact, it was your review, Jean, that induced me to seek out and find those marketing German digests! My copies are on Kodak SP, but they very little fade to them and are still much more saturated in color than any US Ken film print I have ever run into.
We even chose to leave them in german as, heck, we already know all the dialogue by heart!
Does anyone know if those six IE 200ft releases have any footage not in the Ken or marketing versions?
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on June 28, 2011, 05:02 AM:
I'd like to know that too, Osi, but in the top left corner of the box covers you can see they are licenced from Ken Films...suggests they are short versions of the Ken releases, but hopefully I'm wrong!
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 28, 2011, 10:30 AM:
Yoicks and away! (thump!)
The merry chase is on for more rare STAR WARS!
trivia question ...
What is the first statement on this post from? (Think Warners cartoons!)
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on June 29, 2011, 03:53 AM:
Robin Hood Daffy 1958!!!
Now, just off to look at Japanese ebay... (thump?)
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 29, 2011, 10:27 AM:
However, I really can't join up with you Rob, I'm just not convinced your Robin Hood!
Posted by Chris Fries (Member # 2719) on September 25, 2011, 04:13 AM:
That is a great "Star Wars" review. I don't know about the German versions but I do have something to add. The reviewer talked about the differences between the Ken and Marketing versions of this film. It was not mentioned that Ken released two different 400ft versions of Part 1. I recently picked up two copies of Part 1 (Ken F48). One ran 17 min. and the other was nearly 20 min. The Ken Films catalog I have shows that "Star Wars" was available in "D" (b&w silent 11 min.), "F" (color silent 11 min.), and "G" (color sound 11 min.). It looks like they forgot to list "H" (color sound 16 min.) and "K" (color sound 18 min.).
The first 7 min. are exactly the same for both. These are the differences:
The scene in Obi-Wan's hut in the shorter version starts with Luke asking "How did my father die?" Obi-Wan explains and finishes with the line "Now the Jedi are all but extinct." Cut to Obi-Wan playing Leia's message. After, he says "You must learn the ways of the Force if you're to come with me to Alderaan." Luke says "Alderaan?". Obi-Wan then says "You must do what you feel is right, of course."
In the longer version, this scene is extended and includes Obi-Wan giving Luke the lightsaber, explaining about the Force and Luke saying "I can't get involved!".
In the shorter version, the Millennium Falcon blasts out of the Death Star. Cut to Luke in the gunport and the battle begins.
In the longer version, The Falcon speeds away from the Death Star. Luke grieves for Obi-Wan. Leia comforts him. Han says "We're coming up on the sentry ships. Hold 'em off! Angle the deflector shields while I charge up the main guns!" Han then runs down to the hold area and says to Luke, "Come on, buddy, we're not out of this yet! " Han goes to his gunport. Luke throws off the blanket and Leia heads for the cockpit. Luke climbs down the ladder into the gunport cockpit.
The rest of the battle between the Falcon and the TIE fighters is the same for both digests to the end. According the the catalog, "H" films cost $50 and "K" was $55. So, for $5 you got two more min. of film.
What I find interesting is that the original review states that the extended scene with Obi-Wan from the Ken version is as I described but the scene inside the Falcon is from the Marketing version. Does this mean there was a third version?! Can anyone here tell us for sure?
Posted by Marshall Crist (Member # 1312) on September 25, 2011, 08:34 AM:
The 200' STAR WARS from Ken was later expanded into the 400' "Volume 1." (At the time there was no Volume 2.) The 400' shortened the two scenes you mentioned--the hut, and the in the Falcon after escaping the Death Star. Presumably they did this to tighten things up and make room for other footage. My first thought was that the version you have was doctored by a collector to include the footage that was unique to the 200', but I suppose it is POSSIBLE that Ken did it themselves, perhaps in response to customer complaints. That would be a highly unusual move for them, though.
Posted by Chris Fries (Member # 2719) on September 25, 2011, 12:12 PM:
Thanks. I've never seen it so I didn't know that both of those extended scenes were part of the 200'. I examined the film and found no splices. I do know that if Ken or anyone else was planning to add more scenes to this longer version, they couldn't. The film is at the edge of the reel now. So, what about the red Ken catalog? The only films listed are the color and b&w '200 versions. I always thought the '400 came out before these. I also don't if the longer version came out later or at the same time. Either way, good for them for releasing both. I'm now wondering if these extended scenes are in the two parter re-edit that's up right now on eBay. I'm going to ask them.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on September 25, 2011, 05:31 PM:
Chris, really interesting, thanks for that info!
There were slightly different versions of Empire Pt.1, so it is possible that Ken released a slightly different version of Star Wars Pt.1 too.
Darn, now I have to find a copy of that longer version as well!
Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on September 25, 2011, 08:41 PM:
Very interesting. As Marshall said, the 200' cutdown came out before the 400' version. I should point out that the "K" category in the red Ken flyer was created exclusively for the Elvis Presley digests which ran a bit longer than the Ken's other releases. The next year they eliminated the "K" and grouped the Presley films with the other 400 footers under "H".
Posted by Chris Fries (Member # 2719) on September 25, 2011, 08:59 PM:
Thanks guys. There were different versions of Empire Pt.1? Noooooooooo! That's impossible!
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on September 26, 2011, 04:43 AM:
LOL Chris! But search your feelings...you know it to be true!
Yes I've two prints of Empire which vary slightly. In one, after Luke is attacked by the Wampa, Ken added a quick fade to black before finding Luke lying in the snow and his vision of Obi-Wan. In the other version, there is just a straight cut to Luke lifting his head.
At the end of the reel, after the tie-fighters have been destroyed in the asteroid belt, you see the Falcon enter the huge asteroid and Leia and Han's lines, "I hope you know what you're doing", "yeah, me too..."
The other version just fades out as the Falcon begins the back flip into the asteroid.
Opinions on the forum are that the shorter version was actually produced later and is simply the result of short sections being removed due to negative wear. I suppose that would make some sense.
Posted by Chris Fries (Member # 2719) on September 26, 2011, 10:41 AM:
Very interesting. Then what I have is the longer one. Sorry, film. Longer film.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 26, 2011, 01:52 PM:
That's quite interesting on those subtle changes. I've never seen the "quick cut" version, only the slight fade out after the Wampa attacks.
I must give credit where credit is due. It was due to Rob's excellent review of his edit of STAR WARS that encouraged me to seek out a German marketing version of this digest and he was right, the color is absloutely gorgeous and well saturated on the German print ...
... and ...
many of those German prints were on fuji or agfa, so it is possible to find an excellent color print of this digest. Mt copy is a Kodak SP version of this with the ever slightest fade, but the color, even with that slight fade, is better than on the Ken Films US edition.
Posted by Chris Fries (Member # 2719) on September 26, 2011, 02:33 PM:
Osi, you are so lucky. Both my Ken "Star Wars" Part 1 and, especially, my "Empire" Part 1 are really faded. And, not only is my "Star Wars" Part 2 faded but, being a former library copy, it has lines from hell. I hope to find a better one someday. The bright spot in all this is my copy of "Empire" part 2. Brilliant color. No lines at all. In fact, it may be the best looking (color)film in my collection. Unfortunately, it's not completely perfect. There is a slight sound drop out from time to time.
[ March 28, 2012, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Chris Fries ]
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on September 28, 2011, 07:37 PM:
Osi, thanks mate Honestly, if "A Merry Christmas" isn't No.1 somewhere soon, I'll eat my Indiana Jones hat!
Chris, Empire Pt.2 is notorious for having, how shall I put it, very treble boosted sound. I have heard several copies and all have had a very "bright" sound. Unfortunatley, all the copies I've heard also have momentary drop-out at different points also, although only for a split-second or so at varying points...Ken obviously employed a different recording house for these releases me thinks.
That said, if the drop-out in your reel is constant, as your youtube posting suggests, it may be a fault or damage to the original recording which can be rectified with a re-recording?
Also note the difference in dialogue;
4:42 mins into your reel of Empire, "Any aggressive move will not be tolerated"...later re-placed in many theatrical versions with "You will not deviate from your present course".
Also, 12:49 into your reel of Empire, "We HAVE to go back" (complete with what looks like, albeit off-camera, lip-sync) replaced in most subsequent versions with, "I know where Luke is..."
Of course, all 8mm versions are the same, but just watch that, "we HAVE to go back", again, watch the actors reactions, and tell me it isn't better.
Posted by Chris Fries (Member # 2719) on September 29, 2011, 03:04 AM:
Rob, I just watched the scenes and you're right! The original is better. Since he just bought this and has plans to redo the sound, I hope Osi can find a clean copy of the original soundtrack.
Now, I apologize If this has already been discussed elsewhere but I have an "Empire" and a "Star Wars" S8 question. Why was the line "No, I am you father" and the death of Obi-Wan cut from the digests?
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on September 29, 2011, 06:31 AM:
Chris, it was part of the contract with Fox and Ken that these pivotal moments would be excluded from the cut downs.
Some forum members have sneakily re-dubbed "I am your father back in"!
Posted by Chris Fries (Member # 2719) on September 29, 2011, 09:03 AM:
Thanks. If I still had it, I'm not sure if I would dub in the line or not. But I do know that 8mm films get altered by their owners. :0
I'm sorry, but my original post was the ravings of a lunatic. Don't look too hard for that longer version of "Star Wars" part 1. I had a closer look at mine and, sure enough, those scenes were spliced in. I was originally looking for tape but someone did an excellent cement job. I could not see the splice when I first watched it. Now I can.
Speaking of fan edits, am I the only one who finds it interesting that this just went up on eBay? They sold the exact same thing on Wed.
[ March 28, 2012, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Chris Fries ]
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on September 29, 2011, 10:33 AM:
Yes, it's a nice edit job though - yours I mean, Chris.
Darn, I was quite looking forward to discovering yet another version!
Posted by Chris Fries (Member # 2719) on September 29, 2011, 11:41 AM:
Yeah, I think it's good, too. Like I said, I couldn't even tell when I watched it. Have you spliced your 200 in the 400 part 1? If I hadn't bought it that way, I think I would have tracked down the 200 and done it myself. I wish Ken had made one. Again, I'm sorry I gave you hope of finding a "longer" part 1. I did ask the seller of the re-edit of 1 & 2 if those scenes from the 200 were also in it. They said no. Just the original parts 1 & 2 were combined. If I had an extra $50 to blow, I would be curious to see how good a job they did.
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on September 29, 2011, 03:23 PM:
Chris, perhaps you should read the beginning of this thread. Master Rob is the one who inspired a lot of us into editing together both Keb's 400 footers, the 200ft extras and the Marketing reels into a nearly 1200ft digest of the film.
Posted by Chris Fries (Member # 2719) on September 29, 2011, 03:35 PM:
Pardon, monsieur. mon erreur. Merci
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on September 30, 2011, 02:13 AM:
Vous êtes le bienvenu !
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 01, 2011, 01:08 PM:
I wonder if part of the reason for the editing out of "I am Your Father" might have been because the earliest printing (known) of the Empire Digests was december 79, (as noted on the German Empire part 1 print), and if these were entering the hands of the public before it actually hit the theaters, that big reveal of Darth being Luke's father ... welll, the cat would have been let out of the bag.
If I do re-record the Empire digests, I'm going to place the re-record on the balance stripe, as the sound effects and some of the dialogue on that Empire digest is from different vocal "takes" that were not used later on. That makes that early version in the digest something of a collectors item.
Still looking for a low fade part 1!
Posted by Chris Fries (Member # 2719) on October 09, 2011, 06:25 AM:
Rob, your original review has inspired me. I have edited part 1, part 2 and the 200' together in chronological order.
[ March 28, 2012, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: Chris Fries ]
Posted by Marshall Crist (Member # 1312) on October 09, 2011, 07:30 PM:
Nice. I don't remember my copy having the voice-over at the beginning, but it may have.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 20, 2011, 03:12 AM:
Chris, great stuff, as are the rest of your super 8 films on YouTube; just enjoyed watching Logan's Run before work, I'd never seen the super 8 version before!
Marshall, that voice over at the start of Star Wars was standard on the Ken release; I think it works quite well.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on October 21, 2011, 01:38 PM:
It SUCKS, (voice over), just my opinion though. In many ways, the STAR WARS digest (200ft) was instrumental to me getting into super 8. I remember seeing the 200ft version at K-Mart and wanting it so badly as a child.
Probably, one of the most re-watchable digests ever made, along with Jaws, as so many people outside of the film realm will instantly want to sit down and watch it as well.
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 27, 2011, 03:25 PM:
LOL Osi, maybe it does, infact, suck!
But when you've been watching something since you were about 10 years old, maybe it just seems better with the old "rose-tinted" than it actually is!!
"Princess Leeea, raaacing home with stolen plaans, hopes to restore freedum to the galixiii...",
"...and where's my pay cheque??? Hey, I just did a rubbish voice-over for some cheap-bit home movie company for some cheap-bit sci-fi, good grief, where is my career going? It can only get better..."
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on October 28, 2011, 01:15 AM:
When I retracked the Ken + Marketing digest, I considered dumping the opening voice, then I thought it would still be a good substitute for the title crawl. So a friend (a radio DJ in the US who's got the perfect "in a world..." type of voice) provided it for me...
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on October 28, 2011, 09:51 AM:
Any chance of getting an audio file for that Jean-Marc???
I guess your friend may want royalties!!
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on October 28, 2011, 04:53 PM:
Rob, although I lost the retracking file, I still have the original voice recording. Contact me off-site jmtoussaint (at) claranet (dot) fr
Visit www.film-tech.com for free equipment manual downloads. Copyright 2003-2019 Film-Tech Cinema Systems LLC