8mm Forum: What is a dupe original?

This is topic What is a dupe original? in forum 16mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on April 27, 2008, 09:31 PM:

Got a film and marked on the lab leader is "dupe original". Whatz it mean. [Confused]

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on April 28, 2008, 01:34 AM:

Exactly that - it's a dupe, or duplicate, from an existing 16mm positive (projectable print). Someone made a copy by taking a negative from that projection print and then printing a new positive of it. Voila!

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on April 28, 2008, 05:06 PM:

Actually Jan, that's incorrect --- printed in words "dupe" actually generally refers to the negative - a dupe neg is a negative made from another negative - prints from dupe negs that are produced by a studio are considered originals. -- it's not a "dupe" in the sense that collectors mean dupe...

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on April 28, 2008, 06:16 PM:

Can you only dupe black and white usually as never seen it applied to colour, though no reason why you can`t take a neg from a 16mm colour print.
I have a short print on 16mm was taken from a 16mm print to a neg than back and looks awesome. No way I would describe it as a dupe but sounds like thats what it is sort of.
Best Mark.

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on April 28, 2008, 06:20 PM:

Thanks, again, Steve.

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on April 28, 2008, 10:14 PM:

Collectors have long applied their own terms to prints but for the record, the print system is:
Original negative exposed in the camera (either 35mm or 16mm)
Daily print made from camera negative for editing (now done on video)
Answer print/first trial print which may or may not have a sound track and is used to judge and set scene to scene density and color correction.
Interpositive from original negative incorporating all timing corrections. This is a special stock which has the orange base which is actually a color correction for the dyes used in the film
A dupe negative which is used to make release prints, several dupe negatives made from the interpositive may be used at once if a large number of prints are necessary.
16mm prints from 35mm originals would be made from a dupe negative made from the 35mm interpositive.

In black and white, the interpositive is called a fine grain and is a low contrast positive often on a lightly tinted stock (hence the old name: lavenders).

A special stock is used to make a negative from the fine grain and is a dupe negative for release printing.

Once again a 35mm finegrain would be used to make a reduction 16mm dupe negative for 16mm release prints.

Super8 prints were produced on a CORP (continous optical reduction printer) using the 16mm dupe negative to make multiple Super8 prints on either 35mm (four up) or 16mm (two up) stock.

A color negative made from a positive print would be an internegative and would be made on special internegative stock which is designed to see the positive dye and creates a dupe negative with a dye mask. With the exception of Ektachrome Commercial (for which the film was designed) this results in a higher contrast ratio and some color errors.

Collectors have long used the term "dupe" to mean any print made by any means from another print.

In the world of 16mm you also get into A wind and B wind prints and you have to make a sound track (on black and white stock) of the proper wind to match the negative. By standard, a 16mm print should be B wind which matches the emulsion position of a camera original in the projector. A single contact print reverse the position to A wind. Easy enough to focus the picture, but with the exception of a few professional machines and several Kodak projectors, you can't refocus the sound optics and there is a drop off in frequency response in the A-wind position.

By contast, 35mm prints by standard are the reverse of camera original in the projector (emulsion toward the lamp) because all 35mm original photography is done on negative and thus a projection copy by contact reverses the emulsion position. That's the same reason 16mm is emulsion towards the lens since originally all photography was on reversal materials and originals were shown.

John

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on April 29, 2008, 02:11 PM:

Mark, your print is a dupe - albeit a very good one.

I've seen dupes looking as good as originals.

-Mike

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on April 30, 2008, 03:05 PM:

Steve,

thanks for the correction... I didn't know negative dupes also existed... now the words "dupe original" on Dan's print make more sense indeed. An original positive from a duped negative. [Smile]

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on April 30, 2008, 08:31 PM:

So what it more or less comes down to here is that just about everything thats been released on 8mm since the early 80`s is a dupe but a really great one and also a bit of 16mm as well.
Best Mark.

Posted by John Whittle (Member # 22) on April 30, 2008, 09:00 PM:

Well yes, but what it really comes down to is proper releases are made from materials which trace back to the original negative all with proper duplicaitng steps of either fine grains and dupe negatives for black and white or internegtives and interpositives for color.

PD distributors used release prints as their source material and depending on the quality, the prints could vary from good to very bad.

As a rule of thumb, keep the source as big (i.e. 35mm) as far as possible. The very best 16mm prints are direct reductions from 35mm negatives and can look fantastic. The problem is you'll rarely ever see one because of the potential damage to the original negative since optical printers are not as kind to film as contact printers. When I was working in post production, I had a few made over the years and they'll really knock you out with the sharpness and color you can get.

It wasn't until the early 70s that 8mm and super8 prints were made by reduction from 16mm material. Prior to that 8mm double rank negatives were made and you can easily see the difference with it's increase grain and contrast compared to the reduction prints.

John

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