8mm Forum: Bell & Howell 658Q projector problem

This is topic Bell & Howell 658Q projector problem - help requested in forum 16mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Doug Jenkins (Member # 5130) on December 01, 2015, 08:47 PM:

I have just inherited a 658Q projector (with instruction booklet) and several 16mm home movie films from my late father-in-law. Typical of his life he purchased the best equipment available in the day. The projector has been stored well but has not been used for several decades.

When attempting to thread the film a squeaking noise was apparent, which I traced to the short rubber belt for the change speed function slipping on the larger bottom pulley (which looks like a stepped drum). With power removed the top pulley attached to the drive motor spins OK but the bottom pulley only turns a few degrees in each direction, then stops.

Nothing appears to be broken and all other components and drive belts appear to be in good condition.

Attached is a picture of the white-coloured drum roller in question.

I'm hoping someone with a working knowledge of this projector can advise me on likely causes for this condition. I've read the instruction booklet several times but can't find a solution to the problem, but maybe I've overlooked some simple step.

Alternatively, can anyone recommend a suitable repair facility in Melbourne, Australia?

Posted by Mike Shaw (Member # 4640) on December 01, 2015, 09:44 PM:

Doug...Here's your Bell & Howell repairer in Melbourne..John Mackay 9802 9424

Posted by Doug Jenkins (Member # 5130) on December 01, 2015, 10:22 PM:

Hi Mike. Thanks you for the quick response.

Would you believe I found John's contact details on the net just a short time ago and have just put down the phone after speaking to his wife. They live not far away so will take it along to John for expert opinion.

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 3812) on December 02, 2015, 02:18 AM:

Doug,
I think you may be needing a Worm gear for that machine as when they split they often jam the entire gear train.
Have a looky on the other side of the shutter towards the front & see what the worm drive looks like. Any cracks or splits means it is U/S.

Lindsay

Posted by Doug Jenkins (Member # 5130) on December 02, 2015, 11:59 PM:

Thank you everybody for your input. John checked the projector today and confirmed the suspicions that it's a broken worm gear. I now need to think about my options. I don't want to invest too much if the machine only gets limited use. By chance I also have a B&H model 642 that is in poor condition but the worm gear looks OK, so swapping it across could be considered.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 03, 2015, 03:56 AM:

Doug
Get the 642 running if you think its worm is OK.
It's not just a question of swapping over the gear. The 642 is manual thread and the 658Q is auto-thread. When a worm is changed on an auto-thread model there is the additional work of correctly phasing the auto-thread mechanism. It's all complicated, time consuming and could be very expensive.

Posted by Richard C Patchett (Member # 974) on December 03, 2015, 10:46 AM:

Greetings
Worm gear replacement is major overhaul. To change it requires EXTENSIVE disassembly of the mechanism (once it's removed from the projector of course!). Once you start dissembling the mechanism you lose all the critical adjustments which require the special (expensive) Bell & Howell tools & jigs to readjust/realign. The new gears are colored black to distinguish them from the old style plastic

It takes at least 4 to 6 hours to open / replace that worm gear / and to REASSEMBLE your B&H correctly.

Average cost worm gear replacement job costs around $300 per machine plus parts.

One could replace only the cracked worm gear, but it is almost the farthest thing into the projector. Half the labor is expended just accessing it. And, the projector probably wouldn't be happy and might have wow in sound and picture instability, because sprocket spindles may be dry of lubrication, a sprocket gear may be warped, sound head needs attention, shuttle needs adjustment, uneven take up drive, etc., etc.
RC

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 03, 2015, 01:56 PM:

The Bell & Howell model 658Q is one of the TQI series dating from around 1969, hence it could be forty-six years old.
As Richard rightly says, it's not just changing the worm (which is in the heart of the projector) but a large amount of other ancillary work will probably be necessary.
If the films are home movies, then they are most likely to be silent and taken at 16 frames per second. If so, it would be a good idea to find a cheap 16mm silent projector to re-live old memories.
Note that Bell & Howell 16mm sound projectors will probably run at 18 fps on their silent setting.

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 3812) on December 03, 2015, 07:22 PM:

Doug,
If the quote to supply & fit a new worm gear is not overly expensive go with the 658Q as IS far better machine than the 642.
The light output is better plus it is also Magnetic replay as well as optical.
The 642 uses the 240V 1000W lamps which are not much better than a radiator!! the 658 uses the 24V 250W halogen lamp which gives a more white & brighter light than the old 642 can ever hope for.
I have just recently cleared out my shed of a bundle of 16mm machines & in amongst them were 7 642's all gone to be melted down as scrap.
The 24V 250W lamp is easier now to obtain than the 240V 1000 watters.
As others have noted changing the worm gear IS time consuming & requires careful re-assembly much of which to do is with the auto loop restoring function and the correct relationship of the sprocket immediately after the gate.
Is important that the correct loop is maintained below the gate else it pulls tight-ish, almost triggering the loop restorer & creating sound flutter or at worse wow which the sound drum simply cannot smooth out.
Once set up & going well the machine will last for years.

John may well know of a source of a good S/H 16mm unit of later vintage or you could contact Mike Trickett at Real Deals & place an advert for a 16mm unit in that magazine..plenty of 16mm film buffs in Melbourne.
That might be cheaper than replacing the worm gear.

Posted by Doug Jenkins (Member # 5130) on December 03, 2015, 11:22 PM:

Again, thank you sincerely everyone for all the constructive comments. Certainly a few things to consider. I understand the relative complexity to replace the worm gear as I had a look at this video which seems to describe the steps involved. I can see where the labour costs come from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znCTbFE2bgI

Time to consider the options. [Smile]

[ December 04, 2015, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: Doug Jenkins ]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 04, 2015, 04:12 AM:

quote:
.....the 658 uses the 24v 250w halogen lamp.....

This is true, but it is not the lamp that most Bell & Howell users are accustomed to. The lamp is the A1/235. The projector has its own reflector.
Kits are/were available to convert the TQI range to use the very familiar ELC lamp. Both my 655QE models have been converted.

Posted by James Wilson (Member # 4620) on December 04, 2015, 08:40 AM:

Just as I thought a real doddle, HaHa.

I tried to get one of the TQ series a while ago but was warned about the worm gear, this put me off, so I settled for a Rank Aldis which I have only had to replace the main belt, enough said.
James.

Posted by Lindsay Morris (Member # 3812) on December 04, 2015, 09:11 PM:

Quote:
The lamp is the A1/235. The projector has its own reflector.

That is as you say true & maybe more applicable regarding kits to modify to a ELC lamp for UK users.
Kits were never readily available in Aust & many users stayed with the A1/235 so long as the reflector was still in good nick.
Many of us in Aust were able to fit ELC type lamps when we were able to purchase suitable socket & bracket assemblies from GOOD lamp suppliers but in recent years that has pretty much dried up.
Even those bracket assemblies needed drilling to be able to accurately fit the lamphouse & give good light.
In the past I have had to retrofit butchered lamphouses that the owners had tried to fit the ELC lamps but managed to make a total hash of the job.
In recent times work on 16mm machines here in WA at least has all but ceased which is why I have been cleaning out my workshop.
Only to make room to store ex cinema 35mm gear that I recovered from my outdoor cinema after I converted that to digital with a S/H NEC 1600C which is fitted with Dolby 3D gear & is about the ONLY outdoor venue in OZ that does screen 3D movies.
In fact last night the new owner screened "The Walk" in 3D & comments from departing patrons was most positive as many only remember the old 3D with Red & Green glasses.

Posted by Doug Jenkins (Member # 5130) on December 05, 2015, 07:42 PM:

As a short term measure I purchased a Siemens 2000 type sf p 6.11 projector on eBay yesterday so I can now take my time deciding on the future use of the Bell & Howell.
I found an Instruction Manual for the 2000 on the internet but it isn't for my exact model. Whilst most functions are explained it would be nice to have the correct documentation. Any ideas on where I could locate the right manual? Happy to pay accordingly.

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on December 13, 2015, 02:12 PM:

I have brand new reflectors for this machine also I have the a1 235 lamp ,I also carry spares for this machine if you should ever want any

Posted by Paul Mason (Member # 4015) on December 15, 2015, 06:50 AM:

Doug,

Good luck with the Siemens. The Bell & Howell 642 is also preferable to a 658 as there is less to go wrong and the light output is perfectly adequate for pictures up to six feet wide.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 15, 2015, 09:34 AM:

The 1000 watt lamp used in the 642 and its brothers is a first class lamp.
In the 60s I used my 652 for Film Society showing onto an 8ft white screen. By attaching a Proskar anamorphic we had a perfectly acceptable 'scope picture 16ft x 6ft.

Posted by Paul Mason (Member # 4015) on December 16, 2015, 07:50 AM:

I've certainly had no problem with the 1000W lamp which is still reasonably plentiful in the UK. It all depends on conditions - density of the print, a good blackout, screen condition and so on. I'm not surprised Maurice found a 16 ft wide scope picture was acceptable as I should have said a 6 feet picture is a minimum for fairly adverse conditions.

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