8mm Forum: B&H 644 Cracked Worm Gear

This is topic B&H 644 Cracked Worm Gear in forum 16mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Daniel Elliott (Member # 5483) on March 13, 2017, 04:43 PM:

Hello. So my B&H has what seems to be a very common problem. The projector will not move forward but will run in reverse just fine.
I opened it up and found out that the reason for the jamming on forward was because of a
large crack in the plastic worm gear.

Only thing i'm wondering is the procedure to replace it and where I can get the replacement part. I ordered a service manual so i'm hoping that contains a decent disassembly guide.
I have attached a photo of the worm gear.

Any advice on disassembling this to replace the gear would be very much appreciated. Apologies if these seem like very simple issues, i'm very new to 16mm so a lot of this is unfamiliar to me.

http://imgur.com/hOfj71O

Many thanks
-Daniel

EDIT: Sorry for the duplicate post. Was due to a browser glitch. Feel free to remove one of them.

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on March 13, 2017, 05:44 PM:

I have these gears in stock and many more spares or I can sell you a fully serviced bell and howell similar to yours so you could use yours as a spare if you should have need to .I have about 4 in stock ask forum members who have bought projectors of me

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on March 13, 2017, 10:11 PM:

Other 16mm forums have numerous discussions regarding this issue. It is a very difficult process to replace the gear and not for an inexperienced person. There are several youtube videos showing the process on differnt models of B&H projectors.

Posted by Daniel Elliott (Member # 5483) on March 14, 2017, 06:28 AM:

Hello.
Since I didnt pay anything for this projector, buying another isnt really an option for me at the moment. Is there anyone out there (preferably close to me) who would be able to replace the worm gear for a fee?
I think that seems like the best option for me at the moment.

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on March 14, 2017, 06:53 AM:

You're looking at around £150-£200

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on March 14, 2017, 08:57 AM:

Daniel
Replacing a worm is not for an unexperienced person to attempt, it is a skilled job for a professional. It is not just replacing the worm, there are many other items to be adjusted which require correct service equipment.
I can recommend my engineer who is a expert with 16mm projector repairs. I have just spoken to him and have his permission to quote approximately £250 for complete refurbishment of your 644.
I attach Kevin Brown's website for full details including his new contact numbers.
https://www.yell.com/biz/kb-cine-repairs-nottingham-8723722/

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2017, 09:05 AM:

Any engineer though,worth his or her salt, should be able to carry out this task with relative ease, it has to be said Maurice.

So long as you understand how the designers intended any mechanism to work and so long as you have the skills and necessary tools to facilitate this, no problem I'd say.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on March 14, 2017, 09:49 AM:

I have had superb service from Kevin Brown for nigh on ten years now and would not consider using anyone else.

Are there many engineers left in this country who have the adequate knowledge to be proficient to service 16mm sound projectors, particularly the replacement of Bell & Howell worms?

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on March 14, 2017, 10:04 AM:

No Andrew...there is a difference between an engineer and a cinematic engineer. Another sweeping statement you've made! I know many engineers who would have no idea how to begin this job. And unless you have done the job, it's hard to comment. Have done about 10 now, though only for myself.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2017, 10:16 AM:

That's why I used the words "worth their salt" Simon!

There are plenty around Maurice, plenty, it's not rocket science after all.

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on March 14, 2017, 11:03 AM:

hi Daniel I would have supplied and fitted you a gear for 125 but you have never even bothered to contact re a gear so it might be best to take the advice from other forum members

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on March 14, 2017, 11:04 AM:

quote:
There are plenty around Maurice, plenty, it's not rocket science after all

Perhaps Andrew could list the professional engineers who can quote for replacing a worm on a 16mm Bell & Howell.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2017, 11:14 AM:

There are a quite few as you know who do this kind of thing commercially Maurice, but I wasn't talking about commercial cine repair services, simply engineers who would tackle this job with ease.

Simon is clearly a self professed person capable of such work, I know and have known plenty of proficient electrical and mechanical engineers in my lifetime that would eat this kind of work for breakfast, that's all my comments were intended as.
Not to make out its such a challenging venture for anyone who has the necessary know how and skill set, that's all Maurice.

Even the commercial projector repair people often liaise with one another when they occasionally get stuck on a certain dilemma and one or two I know pass on work to others when it's an electronically complex fault.

No one knows it all or can be an expert on all machines. Much of it is simply down to knowledge, learning a particular model design complex as intended originally, and an ability to repair any electro mechanical object to a very high standard, that's all.

There is even a video or two posted online showing individuals who feel confident enough, how to do this work.
I think one of the ones I've seen may have come from the E.V.E. workshop and may have featured one of our forum members here and elsewhere in his daily work.

16mm machines are often far less complex in the electronic aspect of things than their complex Super 8mm counterparts.
They are equally much larger and easier to access in many instances. This is one of the reasons why some commercial cine engineers no longer want Super 8mm work, that and the fact some spares now are very difficult to find.
Often the sheer expense of Super 8mm work deems it to be uneconomically viable now for many of their owners.

They seem to just scrap a machine with any kind of in-depth fault and go and buy another one instead sadly.

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on March 14, 2017, 11:41 AM:

Go with David, Daniel. You will find him fair in his dealings as well as being very reasonably priced! You will not regret it!

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on March 14, 2017, 12:25 PM:

quote:
There are a quite few as you know who do this kind of thing commercially Maurice, but I wasn't talking about commercial cine repair services, simply engineers who would tackle this job with ease

I only know of two engineers who would readably tackle a worm change on a 16mm Bell & Howell and all the work which is necessary to set up the projector afterwards. They are both professional cine engineers.
It's not to say that any competent engineer couldn't do the job but they would need to have the correct worm to hand, all the necessary manuals and the special tools.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 14, 2017, 12:46 PM:

The parts yes, the special tooling,jigs etc etc, they would make or seek themselves like I've had to for the eccentrics adjustments on the Bauer models I have.

The manuals, maybe, maybe not Maurice.

These are important for recommended lubricants, mechanical set points and of course electronic schematics. But many of the service manuals I personally have,contain a great deal of information that is handy to know, but not exactly necessary to be able to successfully repair one.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on March 14, 2017, 03:49 PM:

Phil at CHC advertises worm gears for B&H. But from what I gather from others here changing it is one thing but getting the projector adjusted right to work again is much more difficult.

Posted by Daniel Elliott (Member # 5483) on March 14, 2017, 03:56 PM:

quote:
hi Daniel I would have supplied and fitted you a gear for 125 but you have never even bothered to contact re a gear so it might be best to take the advice from other forum members

Sorry, i'm not quite sure what you mean here. I would be happy to pay this for the supply and fitting of a replacement gear although it may have to be in a few weeks time when I have a bit of extra cash to spend.

Many thanks.

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on March 14, 2017, 04:22 PM:

I can fit remove and fit a new gear in about 2 hours I have done about 40 gear changes in fact when bell and howell seized trading my father bought most of the spares that bell and howell had we had over 200 bell and howell gears and belts lamps motors etc but over the coarse of 30 years most have these have been sold I think I have about 20 gears left .the the 644 652 655 and 658 are a doodle to work on as there is plenty of room .i turn out with my travelling fairground in a few weeks time so unles I get it in next 5 days it will be impossible to do till then end of novemeber might be best to get one of maurices contacts he seems to be in the know

Posted by Daniel Elliott (Member # 5483) on March 14, 2017, 07:25 PM:

Ah fair enough. It's a bit of a drive away but I think 'KB Cine Repairs' seems like the best person to deal with as they seem to be very highly recommended and a full service could be worth it in the long run.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on March 15, 2017, 03:27 AM:

Daniel
A very wise move.
The 644 was introduced in 1962 and is now long in the tooth. At the time it was top of the range with its optical and magnetic playback, it can also record full track on magnetic.
Changing the worm entails completely stripping down the projector, during this, many other items will reveal that more work may be needed.
I can assure you that when Kevin has finished your 644 will be like new and will give many years of pleasure.

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on March 15, 2017, 04:13 AM:

There's a rumour circulating that Andrew used to have a full set of Encyclopaedia Brittanicas - but his wife threw them out because Andrew knows everything [Big Grin]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 15, 2017, 04:38 AM:

That rumour would be incorrect then Terry. [Wink]

She kept them in the end! Ha ha.

There, that's something else I know for certain! [Big Grin]

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on March 15, 2017, 08:16 AM:

I hope everything goes ok I could have sorted this for him I hope the gear is a good one and not a copy or one that has been machined , as I have know these to seize after a bout 20 mins then it all has to be stripped down again with another new gear ,you cant beat genuine bell and howell gears like I have .let us all know on here when you get it back and cost of having it repaired

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on March 15, 2017, 01:01 PM:

yes I think he passed his books on to Maurice

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on March 15, 2017, 05:29 PM:

Well David - The difference is that Maurice's comments/posts are based on many years of real life experiences of collecting and operating film/projectors of all guages, whereas Andrew likes to pontificate on all film guages even though he has no practical experience of them.
Andrew is a self proclaimed 8mm enthusiast and is on record as stating that he is not interested in collecting 16mm or other guages. So whose advise would you follow??

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on March 15, 2017, 05:53 PM:

well I suppose Maurice. but what I cant understand he never puts any work my way re projectors or tell any one on here that I have lots of spares for projectors and films etc he gives name of everyone else .I don't know why ,I do know he bought 2 projectors of me and I met him on my way to dorset and saved him the postage how many dealers would do that

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 15, 2017, 07:04 PM:

All is true Terry, except to say ive equally never owned any PCMC, Casmatic, Perini or GEC machinery,to name but few, but I know how to fix them when they dont work as intended.

I didnt realize you had to regularly show 16mm film to be able to fix a 16mm projector sorry? [Confused]

You are however 100% accurate in saying i have absolutely no interest whatsoever in 9.5mm, 16mm or 28mm film guages.
Nor do i ever intend loaning 35mm or 70mm from any film companies to view in my lounge.

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on March 15, 2017, 07:41 PM:

I must admit Andrew is very much like me I have no interest in super 8 theirs nothing worse than watching a film with sand in your eyes and the flimsy film you have to deal with and Andrew has no interest 1n 16mm ,but I must admit he seems to know what he is talking about re super projectors and films probably as much knowledge as me on 16mm my father was the bee knees on 16mm films and projectors and owned a cinema in the 60s which he owned for years before selling it to Tesco for a supermarket

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on March 15, 2017, 08:08 PM:

Stay tuned folks for the next exciting chapter of "Replacing The Worm Gear" right here on "The Forum". [Big Grin]

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on March 15, 2017, 08:15 PM:

We'll only stay tuned if we stay on topic.

This thread is about Daniel and his Worm Gear, which sounds like the title of an animated film for kids.

Doug

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 15, 2017, 10:06 PM:

I believe a conclusion was already drawn up on that one Doug, several chapters earlier.

Daniel, I believe, decided to sample the services of Kevin Brown from what we gather, to overhaul his B&H projector.

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