8mm Forum: For Barry Johnson and all fans of Standard 8mm

This is topic For Barry Johnson and all fans of Standard 8mm in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 11, 2006, 04:46 PM:

Hi Barry,
I see the little caption at the bottom of your post's says 'I still think Standard 8 is better'.
How about telling Forum members your perspective on this. Should make an interesting topic.

Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on February 12, 2006, 01:14 PM:

Hello Paul.
In answer to you enquiry,the first thing to come to mind is actual physical strength of R8.Although I do use S8,I have thought from the outset that S8 is somewhat flimsy.That said though,I could of course be wrong in my concept,but the R8 feels more robust.
I could of course be accused of being totally biased as R8 is what I cut my teeth on way back in 1960 when my dad,at my request (who thought I was also abit odd!)fulfilled my request for a film projector for a christmas present.It was a Eumig P8.
I do feel too that some of the R8 films to come out of the USA during the sixties were stunning in print quality and in consistency.I dare to venture that this never did happen with S8 because I dont think S8 has ever been produced in the quantities like R8 was.
OK,the picture frame area is smaller than S8 but as long as you dont push your luck on projected screen size,definition was superior.However,that is where S8 improved-the high light output and sound projection.
Sound.Well that really was/is the Achilles heel of R8.Because of the insistence of putting the stripe on the outer edge of the sprocket holes,quality suffered big time.I own,in my opinion,the finest of R8 sound machines,the TOEI TALKIE.Now if the sound quality is bad,it will make the effort to do a reasonable job,but if the sound is good,it really shines.
Selection.For silent enthusiasts (of which I unashamedly am)the choice was staggering.Quality multi-reeled features and hundreds of two-hundred footers on every subject/category you could think of.My collection of R8 features (silent) have all been spooled up on to four hundred foot reels for convenience!
Personal filming to R8 scores heavily in my opinion.Solidly built cine cameras with prime lenses and good focus ranges.Even the double-run nature of the beast made you careful how you handle film in general.Point and shoot S8 cameras heralded the success of the current digital home movie brigade.No.If you wanted to make films,R8 and 16mm (9.5mm too) was the answer.

Mercifully,R8 has survived the onslaught of alternative media and in a lot of cases is easier to find these days.Here in the UK,availability of camera film is in a very healthy situation and there is not the issue of E64t...................!

So there you have it.That is why I think Regular8 is still the best-and yes-I have a load of restored and useable equipment I still use.
Barry [Smile]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 12, 2006, 04:26 PM:

You make an excellent case Barry, and in fact I agree with a lot of your comments. Certainly, on the camera side, the quality was superb. I still have a lot of Kodachrome shot on a Bolex C8 back in the 1950's and 60's and the quality is stunning. Beautiful rich colors and needle sharp, makes video look second rate! The quality of the equipment was also unbelievable, with all metal camera's and projectors from Bolex and others, equal to 16mm quality. Also as you point out, the film itself was more robust with those 16mm size sprocket holes. And I always liked the spool loaded cameras (with precision gates) as opposed to the awful plastic Kodak super 8 cartridege design.
No, I think in retrospect that everything that was subsequently acheived on super 8 could have been done on standard 8, and that includes halogen and xenon lighting, sound cameras, and stereo magnetic and optical sound tracks.
Time to get out my Bolex C8 and 18-5 projector! [Smile]

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on February 12, 2006, 10:33 PM:

Hi Barry, Paul and all,

You had written:

quote:
the finest of R8 sound machines,the TOEI TALKIE

Can you please provide an image of this machine. I am not familiar with it.
Who manufactured it, and was it during the late '50's or early '60's?

What type of lamp does it take?

I enjoy standard 8mm, and will never forget the dreaded words that Standard 8 was dead, when it was told to me back in the mid seventies.
Ooooo, it drives a chill up my spine even thinking of it now.

Standard 8, always provided a superior picture.

Here is a question that I need help with: if Kodak manufactured a 1200 foot super 8 sound machine; the M 100A, did they also manufacture a standard 8 equivalent model?

Michael

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on February 13, 2006, 04:06 AM:

I have to agree will everything that's been said in favour of Standard/Regular 8.

Personally, I find everything about it - film, equipment, etc. much more 'user-friendly'.

Though I am utterly delighted with my Super 8 kit, everything seems to be a bit more fiddly to get absolutely right....and though definition is supposed to be better with Super 8 due to the larger frame size, in practice I've found that this isn't necessarily the case.

Well, that's my two-pennyworth. Hope no one is offended.

Dave.

Posted by Craig Hamilton (Member # 258) on February 13, 2006, 06:00 AM:

Hi Michael, I think this is the machine in question.

Craig

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on February 13, 2006, 11:16 AM:

I've subtly(!) changed the post title "For Barry Johnson" so others with an opinion on Reg. 8mm can contribute.

Doug

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on February 13, 2006, 04:27 PM:

Hi Craig,

Thanks for the pict of the Toei - Talkie Projector.
That looks like one little, great working unit.

Was the manufacturer named Toei-Talkie?

Michael

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on February 14, 2006, 08:12 AM:

Have to agree with a lot of what was said. Many of the commercial films, especially Castle films , came out out beautifully on Standard 8..owing, however, less to the format than to the nature of the original printing material..AND the extreme care and precision in printing. I have a Standard 8 sound of Frankenstein that I've projected next to my 16mm print and , lumens being equal, ....the standard 8 compares beautifully. Later, when Super 8 really caught on , they were making much larger runs of each print..and eventually , the quality went down. Later Universal 8 was making the super 8's from 16 prints...not original negative material. Ugh.

Projectors? I loved the Eumig Mark S ..standard 8 sound machine. What a tank...and beautiful white light...even had work , threading lights, ...just great. Wore that thing out.
Hated shooting camera footage with Standard 8, though.....you no sooner got going than you had to flip the film over...and risk light foggging it...and it was just terrible. That's where Super 8 really came through..and how it won its followers over.

But Standard 8 is still being run at my house ....some things just never became available in Super 8....especially some obscure silent films.

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on February 14, 2006, 02:35 PM:

I have been frustrated at times by the standard 8 prints on ebay that I have not been able to buy because I have no equipment to run them on.

What would you say are the projectors to look out for and which are the ones to avoid?

Posted by Craig Hamilton (Member # 258) on February 14, 2006, 02:52 PM:

Tony

Chris has a very nice Dual Eumig in his Cine shed. [Wink]

I forget what model it is, but you change the sprockets & gate assembly for each gauge. This takes less than a minuet to do. The sound output is fantastic.

I like you have noticed over the last couple of weeks there have been some cracking Standard 8 prints on offer at rock bottom prices. Maybe if I got my finger out & bought a good Standard 8 machine myself, I might finally get that copy of Nosferatu that I have been looking for. It is more commonly available in Standard 8 rather than Super 8.

Craig

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on February 14, 2006, 05:39 PM:

Do I observe that the above machine has optical sound?

Kev.

Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on February 15, 2006, 12:54 PM:

Tony;Yes is does indeed have optical sound.It also has a variable aperture plate which you slide up and down which effectively enlarges the picture.This is for two reasons.Firstly,it has no zoom lens and secondly,TOEI were the only manufacturers to employ optical sound on their product.This naturally took up a little more picture space where it was placed,thus,the aperture plate could be slid into position to block it out.Ingenious for 8mm!
For information,there once was an experimental Standard 8 mag/opt sound projector,American in origin I think,called FormatM.The sprocket holes were still on the frameline but ever so slightly smaller (but nowhere near the pinpricks of Super8)to accomodate stripe,balance and main,or just straight optical.This last point I am trying to clarify and am currently searching through my files (good old paper ones) for the report on it which may enlighten you all even further.
On a personal note,I am flattered by all the positive responses everyone has made.It is very gratifying that such interest is still out there.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on February 15, 2006, 12:56 PM:

On ebay almost every week there are Eumig 810-D's , 824 D Sonomatics and 802-d's for sale.....these , particularly the 810- are very nice dual machines and usually available at very reasonable prices. I've been able to buy two mint 810's over the last three years on ebay and I use them exclusively for standard 8mm sound and silent. And yes...I've just in the last two weeks bought some Blackhawk standard 8 sound prints of Laurel and Hardy and others for as little as $4.95 a piece off ebay. Well worth it....

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on February 15, 2006, 01:20 PM:

Gary,

Thanks for replying. So you think the 810's then.....

Anyone else have a view?

Barry, there is plenty of people out there with great knowledge on aspects of this hobby that us young uns (ahem!) would be delighted to learn about.

Tony

Posted by David Michael Leugers (Member # 166) on February 15, 2006, 10:16 PM:

A subject I happen to agree with. R-8mm is indeed maybe the most robust format of all time. The large 16mm sprocket perfs easily hold up to the low tension and loads placed on them by the generally top notch R-8mm projectors. I personally have never experienced a damaged perf, unlike many 16mm and S-8mm prints you run across. The cameras and projectors were truely works of art and mechanical engineering. Made to withstand time. It may be why sales of new R-8mm equipment had stagnated causing Kodak to look to a new format to envigorate sales back in 1965 = R-8mm equipment lasts and lasts. True, S-8mm is great and sound is so important for film buffs. I love viewing the many great silent films I have been fortunate to own, almost all on R-8mm. I favour Bolex, Bell and Howell, and Canon for cameras. Bell and Howell and Revere projectors. Many, many other great makes.

David M. Leugers

Posted by Barry Johnson (Member # 84) on February 16, 2006, 07:28 AM:

Tony: I reach the big six-o this year if that makes you feel any younger!
Anyway,as an aside,and not wishing to appear overloaded with a bottomless disposable income,I list here the Regular8 kit I have and use.:
Projectors:
EUMIG P8 NOVO
EUMIG P9 NOVO PHONOMATIC
ELMO FP80
TOEI TALKIE

Cameras:
ELMO 8EE
CANON 8E
BOLEX D8L TRIPLE TURRET
NIZO HELIOMATIC
BOLEX H8RXVS with Pan Cinor zoom option (prefer primes)

Suppose its like the ladies pondering over which shoes to wear,I have the trouble with film gear!!

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on February 18, 2006, 04:23 PM:

Incidentally, is any of you super-8 folks shooting film using one of those high-precision metal backplates? The ones you put into a cartridge's exposure window before inserting the cart into your camera? I've seen demos of film shot with and without that metal plate and they looked very good, but how does the image quality compare to regular-8 film (which relies on the camera's own mechanisms to keep it nice and flat in the gate area)?

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on February 18, 2006, 05:28 PM:

"Thanks for replying. So you think the 810's then.....
Anyone else have a view?"

Tony,
I don't consider myself an expert but I've owned an 810 and an 824 and for me the latter has the edge, even if both are the LUX model with the 1.2 lens. Both projectors are quite similar in performance but the 824 is the last of the Eumig dual guage metal-bodied line, and has some nice extra features such as a tone control, a built-in trimmer and a low light lamp setting option.

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on February 21, 2006, 03:23 PM:

I have two 824's...and the sound is great on them...but ...but for some reason the focusing system seems to be messed up on both. ?Can't get edge to edge sharpness with either of them....with very wide variations from left to right. My 810's seem to be stable and sharp. Probably a coincidence , but it caused me to remove the 824's from the booth and put n the 810's which have given me zero problems.

Posted by Craig Hamilton (Member # 258) on February 21, 2006, 07:17 PM:

Gary, check that the tension on the gate pressure plate is ok. Sometimes the springs become weak with age & do not apply adequate pressure to ensure even focus across the projected image.

Craig

Posted by David Pannell (Member # 300) on March 08, 2006, 11:22 AM:

The 810D works for me! If you're into silents, then I love my Elmo E-80. A real classic with up to 750 watts lamp power, and manual threading too!! SUPERB!! [Big Grin]

- Often available for as little as £25 in excellent condition - all cast metal and chrome - check one out. IT HAS NEVER GONE WRONG.

Dave.

Posted by Trevor Adams (Member # 42) on March 08, 2006, 01:24 PM:

Gary,one way to get around the dreaded Std 8 reel flip-use a Sekonic chamber-flip camera!
I recall Derek Simmonds arguing the case for Std 8mm in MovieMaker.At the time he said Derann would always carry more Std 8 copies of a title than Super 8mm copies.That was early on......... [Smile]

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