8mm Forum: Early TV Videoed programs

This is topic Early TV Videoed programs in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Chris Quinn (Member # 129) on March 05, 2006, 01:34 PM:

Hi Guy’s

I have been collecting recently some early episodes of Steptoe & Son and other early episodes of different programs from the 60s on DVD. I have noticed that these have been filmed with 16/35mm but have been videoed after, which is a shame as early video is pretty awful to say the least. Can any one tell me why this was done; I expect it may have something to do with storage space.

Also some of these videoed episodes have lines that are clearly something to do with screen resolution, there is also alot of motion blur. Could anyone help on this, I know that there are some ex TV guy’s on here that may know the answers.

All the best,

Chris.

Posted by Kenneth Horan (Member # 3) on March 05, 2006, 03:22 PM:

Hi Chris,

I've worked in video and film for years. I hope this answers your questions.

What you have on DVD is a kinescope recording (in the UK it is called a telerecording). The program was either broadcast live or originally shot on videotape and then archived on 16mm or 35mm film. A kinescope recording is made when a motion picture film camera photographs the image from a high quality video monitor made for this purpose. The picture tube or CRT of the monitor was traditionally called a kinescope. Thus the term 'kinescope recording'. In the US the 30 fps video frame rate was synchronized mechanically or electronically with the 24 fps rate of film. In the UK the film camera simply ran at 25 fps to sync with the 25 fps video frame rate. The video lines are noticable because usually only every other field was actually photographed on film. (2 video fields make up 1 video frame). So early UK television was 400 lines. The kinescope recording which photographed every other field was then only 200 lines. A lot of early kinescope recordings are of poor quality. There seemed to be difficulty synchronizing the video and film frame rates perfectly, even with electronic interlock of the video scan rate with the film camera motor, thus the motion blur you speak of.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on March 05, 2006, 04:30 PM:

Yes Keneth is sopt on. This takes me back again to my early Ilford Film days when the company sold a tremendous amount of Black and White film to the UK TV compnaies.
Yes it was telerecording on the now defunct, long gone 405 line system which we had in the UK back then. Most of those shows went out live and were recorded onto film via special telerecording machines. I still have some 16mm test film which show the lines Chris is talikng of very clearly indeed.
I can still not understand why the film was used for recording and why they didnt shoot onto film first instead of doing the shows live.

Kev.

Posted by Chris Quinn (Member # 129) on March 05, 2006, 05:29 PM:

Hi Kenneth,

Thanks for the lesson, excellent. I thought it was the other way round but now i can see it, very strange as Kev has said. I have the first series of Danger man, known in the US as Secret Agent starring Patrick McGoohan. These were done in 16/35mm and are as good as the day they were released.

Thanks again for your posts guy's.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on March 06, 2006, 03:15 AM:

Additionally, many of the older programmes were not kept by the BBC and the recent re-releases on DVD were only made possible by enthusiasts who had early video recording equipment. Dr. Who is the main case in point for this. In a money saving decision the BBC decided to re-use some of the video tape the original broadcast programme recordings were made on. After all, who was ever likely to be interested in the older episodes again? What a mistake. Thankfully many of the 'lost' early episodes were recorded and kept by enthusiasts and that is the only reason they have ever seen the light of day again; albeit on significantly reduced picture quality.

Posted by Chris Quinn (Member # 129) on March 06, 2006, 03:31 PM:

Thanks John,

I am on a bit of a quest to gather early episodes from various programs from the 60's. Many of these are lost gems that have not been repeated because they are in B/W, for instance i have 4 series of Steptoe & Son to get through that i have never seen before, because only the colour episodes have primarily been repeated. These early episodes are proving to be just as good, if not better than the later ones. [Smile]

Chris.

Posted by Jonathan Sanders (Member # 478) on March 07, 2006, 01:36 AM:

I seem to recall reading that some of the early Steptoes were copies that Galton & Simpson found they had retained on very early videotape, but that they had been stored incorrectly and were in poor condition, needing much restoration.

I think live performances were preferred in early TV mainly because it was cheaper than shooting onto film (which was often used only used for "inserts" of outdoor scenes that couldn't be done in a studio). If a repeat was required they just re-staged the whole thing live!

But also I think many actors and directors preferred to work live - it was more like theatre than film. Even such an experienced film actor/director as Buster Keaton refused to continue with his TV show when the producers insisted it all had to be shot on film - though it would have better for us if it had!

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on March 07, 2006, 03:45 AM:

But in the early days before Video became the norm, why record the live show onto 16mm? Why not film the show and then use the 16mm for broadcast. Seems the wrong way round to me unless telecine was not the norm back then!

Kev.

Posted by Jonathan Sanders (Member # 478) on March 07, 2006, 07:37 AM:

I'm speculating here, but apart from the frisson of the shows being watched (as well as performed) live, it would probably have been too costly and difficult to film them live directly onto 16mm, due to the multiple cameras involved. There would be a danger of cameras running out of film at crucial moments (though of course kinescopes had to be made with two cameras filming side by side) and the whole thing would have to be edited together at the end (the kinescopes would only require simple joins, though these sometimes occurred in mid-shot!)

Re. my earlier comment about repeats, I should have said that of course kinescopes would be used where possible but I'm pretty sure I've read about cases where entire shows were re-staged live as in the theatre, especially if there was an unexpected hit (so no kinescope had been made of the first performance) or if the kinescope was too poor quality to use.

The latter was the case with the original 1953 Quatermass serial, where they used 35mm Mechau film recorders for the first two episodes, but even on 35mm the result was so bad (an insect got stuck on the cathode ray during the second episode!) they didn't continue, which is why the last four episodes of that serial don't exist today. That series was such an unexpected hit they did consider an omnibus repeat, using a mixture of kinescope and re-staging, but the idea was dropped. It was certainly a process fraught with difficulties!

Posted by Chris Quinn (Member # 129) on March 07, 2006, 12:02 PM:

It seems to me that we have a lot to thank early collectors, who had the initiative to hold on to these videos otherwise we would not be able to enjoy these wonderful early TV programs.

I am not as technical as you guy's, what i did not mention though is that i managed to replicate these early videos on the PC by chance. I Had recorded a film on TV via my dvd recorder, i then ripped the dvd using my pc to the hard drive, when i played it back on the pc the results were almost identical, there was lines and motion blur, very strange.

Chris.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on March 07, 2006, 04:42 PM:

Here in the USA, 'The Jackie Gleason Show ' and 'I Love Lucy' were all live performances in front of a theater audience, which were simultaneously filmed with three 35mm film cameras. (The very early Gleason shows were Kinescope recordings)So today we are blessed with pristine quality material of all these great shows.

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on March 08, 2006, 03:54 PM:

Paul,

Strangely I had never seen an episode of I Love Lucy until this week, the Hotel we were staying in in Panama had cable in the bedrooms and I got to see an episode there. I was stunned at the quality, especially as our old episodes of Dr Who and Steptoe & Son are such poor quality by comparison!

I seem to remember that Sergant Bilko was excellant quality too, would this have been filmed the same way?

Mike

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on March 08, 2006, 04:02 PM:

Hi Mike,
Welcome to the Western Hemishere! Are you passing thru Orlando Florida? If so let me know and you are welcome for dinner and a movie at our house.
I am sure that 'Bilko' was also a filmed series. Were'nt they great- Phil Silvers at the top of his form. Other 'live' filmed shows were 'Burn's and Allen' and 'The Dick Van Dyke Show'

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on March 08, 2006, 04:18 PM:

Hi Paul

Thanks for the invite, it would have been good to meet you and Betty again, but sadly our route as planned doesn´t take us through Florida - you never know though I might make a detour...

Will you be coming over to any more shows in the UK? We could always catch up again there.

Mike [Smile]

ps. Yep, Seargant Bilko - Phil Silvers at his best, fantasic shows that you can watvh over and over again.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on March 08, 2006, 04:39 PM:

Hi Mike,
Yes I am hoping to get to the May 20th BFCC, and also possibly to Geoff Wheeler's Tadley convention in October. If you decide to come thru Orlando, send me an email.

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on March 09, 2006, 12:12 PM:

Hello Paul

I probably shan't be in the UK for the May BFCC, which is a shame. But am certainly hoping to be at the October event and at Tadley too.

I might see if there would be any mileage in getting a mini cine tour together in the Autumn for forum members to perhaps go to Classic, Derann and one of the shows?

Maybe start another thread on this, it's doubtful that it would come off but no harm in seeing if there's any interest. It has been great to meet Jean-Marc, yourself, Alan and Doug ( and others of course!) at the BFCC and the trip to Derann and Perrys with Doug made a great day out, it could be interesting to arrange something for a crowd and get you all over together?! [Smile]

Mike

ps. sorry Chris for taking this off topic! [Roll Eyes]

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