8mm Forum: More Empire Strikes back guff ...

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 03, 2009, 10:56 PM:

Having watched the restored DVD box set (the most recent one) of the original Star Wars trilogy, I have noted that the prints made for this box set have that bluish cast to them like the last three episodes.

I was lucky enough to still have the original ORIGINAL versions of these three films, as I have the very first widescreen laserdisc releases of all three films and it's official, the overall color spectrum was messed with of the re-releases. NOTE:
this first release on letterboxed laserdisc was before any of the tuning up was done on the films.

I guess that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 04, 2009, 12:12 AM:

Osi,

This is aggravating.
More money for Lucas to make.

About 10 years ago I purchase Mary Poppins,
on VHS Tape because it contained the Premiere at
Graumans Chinese Theater in LA.

The feature was bluish.

Bummer [Frown]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 04, 2009, 09:48 AM:

I agree Micheal ...

For instance, in the original release of "Empire, those first shots on the ice planet, the snow is a nice brilliant white with the slightest bluish cast.

On the latest DVD release, the HOTH planet is very blue in the snow shots.

Once again, the shots on Dagobah (Yoda's planet), there are a good variety of green and such.

On the DVD restoration, the planet is most shades of Blue with green mixed in.

It appears that the original release had, if anything, more of a greenish cast that balanced out the other colors; but one thing is for sure, the snow looked like real snow in the original.

So, why am I going on, fussing over "blues"?

When attempting to verify color fade or pristine color, it's kind of hard to do a verification, when the actual color spectrum of the whole film has been changed for later releases of the film.

Your kind of stuck going back to an earlier release of the film.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 04, 2009, 11:03 PM:

I see it as a sneaky marketing gimmick.

Lucas has full control of his product.
He has never missed a lick.

I am sure that he can pinpoint each and every Dime, Penny
Pence, Lira, Yen, Drachma, Franc, Deutche Mark, etc.
He has personally supervised and counted,
calculated, stored,and chronologically inventoried
and placed in neat rows since 1977 - for every theatrical release,
and marketing enterprise.

Let the Star Wars continue.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 04, 2009, 11:05 PM:

I see it as a sneaky marketing gimmick.

Lucas has full control of his product.
He has never missed a lick.

I am sure that he can pinpoint each and every Dime, Penny
Pence, Lira, Yen, Drachma, Franc, Deutche Mark, etc.
He has personally supervised and counted,
calculated, stored,and chronologically inventoried
and placed in neat rows since 1977 - for every theatrical release,
and marketing enterprise.

Let the Star Wars continue.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 04, 2009, 11:31 PM:

You know MIcheal, I almost sold off this first trilogy of STAR WARS films (letterboxed laserdiscs) at one time, but now, I'm quite happy that I didn't, as they really are the film that I originally saw as a child.

It's also an interesting "test case" for how Hollywood has really improved the technology of what goes into a release. These three original widescreen releases of the films have high amount of dirt and specs and such through them; quite a high amount in fact.

As a general rule, todays DVD releases are technically much better than what we had back then, even when it came to laserdisc, though, at the time, if you had laserdisc, you were definitely in the "hi-tech" realm.

It's kind of funny, technology, has quickened a lot more than my pace!

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 05, 2009, 07:23 PM:

Osi,

Agreed. Studios and computer technology have enhanced
images on the new digital formats.

I become annoyed with artifacts on DVD's. It seems that some
DVD's have been copied from VHS or low masters.

Turner Classic Movies Network (on cable pay TV) has great
classic films, but some of the popular films are filled with
artifacts. Just last week, The Judy Garland film: In the Good Old Summertime
was bothersome to view with jagged and moving artifacts in . Films do not
suffer with this problem.

On the other hand, I wonder how much is being altered when Disney
digitally enhances their cartoons? When Fantasia was first released on
VHS, Disney deepened the blue color background in the symphonic hall.
Also the cartoon sequence that includes the goldfish swimming a-la
Ester Williams had been enhanced. In the scene, the black moor goldfish were slightly cropped below the goldfish and the blue water was deepened to lessen the effect of any potential bias of black moor goldfish under the goldfish?
I know, because this is best noticed on an earlier IB Tech, or LPP 16mm film print.

Pecos Bill was digitally enhanced by taking the rolled up
cigarette out of Bills mouth. Too offensive for children?

It's good that you held onto the Star Wars laser discs.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 05, 2009, 08:23 PM:

Warner Brothers was quite wise when restoring they're classic cartoons ...

They did restore them, frame by frame. However, if there were streaks or other imperfections on the original cel animation, they actually left that in.

In other words, any scratches or imperfections in the 35MM masters, (that is, in the photographic element of the production of animated cartoons), that was done away with, as well as, of course, any built up dust and scratches.

However, if a cel got wrinkled, that wrinkle is still in there.

I feel it was a wise move on the part of the restoration team, and it showed they're respect for the artists that made them.

It makes good sense, however. After all, if you look at combined dollars from feature films and every production made by Warner Brothers, the animation department has made far more money
for the studio's then they could have ever imagined!

Posted by Patrick Walsh (Member # 637) on July 06, 2009, 04:15 AM:

One thing I hate about the STAR WARS dvd releases is that in Jedi they removed Sebastain Shaw from the end scene!
and also removed his eyebrows when Vader is un masked!
Pat

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on July 06, 2009, 10:43 PM:

Whilst snow is white on Earth, could it not be blue on the planet Hoth?

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 07, 2009, 12:23 AM:

Patrick,

I'm furious that once again Lucas tinkered with the film. [Mad]

He toyed with the end music on Jedi, and
to comprehend why Sebastian Shaw was removed - let alone
a make-over by removing his eyebrows? [Eek!]

Silly.

Was it to cut royalties through DVD sales to the original
cast members? [Confused]

I checked out the differences between the original
and the "remastered" on You Tube, and it is
indeed startling. There is a message for those
interested in the original ending that they can look
for the original trilogy in the blue boxed set.

Remastered does not always indicate "improved."
[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on July 07, 2009, 05:34 AM:

Hayden C appears as the 'Force ghost' of Annakin at the end of Jedi because his years of the 'dark side' are expunged. He appears as he last was before he turned. Apparently.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 07, 2009, 10:44 AM:

Micheal

The problem with the "blue boxed sets" is that the original version ... is not the original version.

I checked out that real nice DVD box set that was in that really nice metal tin, (I only wanted it for the tin!), and it had, for each of the movies the restored/deluxe edition and the "original version" of the film.

I noticed that the original version of the film, however, had the same color restoration as the new and improved editions.

The "Blues" of the "Hoth" snow are there in the original as well, but it is very slight, and it has much more of a natural white snow color, with the occasional light hint of blue.

I know that seems like such a little thing, but you should know that, at least for me, STAR WARS really did "rescue" me from a life, (as a child) that was quite traumatic, and fantasy was my one real escape. Animation and fantasy! When that Star Destoyer first came down on the screen, (and I, like I always am, was in the second row of seats right down at the front!), I was in complete awe!

I remember coming up scenario after scenario of STAR WARS stories with my action figures (that's right, ACTION FIGURES, not dolls!) and I imagined myself in that world, going to different planets ect. I had nearly every card of every card set that was made, (the original 16 card Wonder Bread set, AND the 5 sets, that had 66 cards each!)

So, these films, more than any others, had made an incredible impact on my life. I even have a script in the works that takes place in between "SITH" "NEW HOPE", where Obiwan comes out of hiding to protect one Skywalker from being discovered by Vader.

So this film continuies to be an incredible influence on my life.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 07, 2009, 01:27 PM:

Osi,

Thanks for sharing.
The films do stir
many feelings, of
ideas, hope and dreams.

Very interesting regarding another script.
I wonder how they will fit it in?

The Cartoon series Clone Wars on the Cartoon Network,
is a great edition that bridges the story between
Clone Wars and Sith.

Twenty five years ago, Lucas was interviewed and
he stated that the chapters will eventually include
chapters seven, eight and nine.
Evidently this will go on for a long time.

However, if anyone can point me in the correct
direction to locate the format and digital release that is exactly
as they were originally released.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 07, 2009, 02:16 PM:

Micheal ...

Are you perchance,
casting your glance
towards the original
to me, traditional
Trilogy of joy?

all poetics aside, I really don't remember the original versions released in any digital format, except for laserdisc.

The first restorations actually came out first on VHS and Laserdisc, as well as the first versions with new scenes, which also coincided with the first DVD releases. This was at the time that the "Phantom Menace" came out. The box set of Laserdisc's was actually quite deluxe, with a slide out box, like many of the Laserdisc versions, and was among the first THX releases on Laserdisc.

The original catalog numbers, for the original first release of the widescreen versions, are these:

Star Wars #1130-85
Empire #1425-85
Jedi #1425-85

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on July 11, 2009, 04:10 AM:

Osi, check these out if you haven't already;

www.dvdactive.com/reviews/dvd/star-wars-episode-iv-a-new-hope2.html

www.dvdactive.com/reviews/dvd/star-wars-episode-v-the-empire-strikes-back2.html

Those screen shots certainly confirm what you say about those blues!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on July 11, 2009, 09:18 AM:

Those were very interesting. Thank you very much.

Lucas's point may have been to simply make them more contemporary
by giving them a color palette closer to today's releases. My hope then, is that perhaps, film goes back to a more "organic" look, he may tinker with them to give us back the original ... originals.

Those frame captures just remind me of how truly timeless these films are, even Star Wars (presently known as "A New Hope!"). Even after thirty years, while other films of that same time period have aged considerably, (not in color, but in content), STAR WARS and the accompanying films remain timeless.

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