quote:

---

(with many bids but no buy or sells to they're identity)

---

quote:

---

By the way,I've seen the last minute automatic bidding hardware advertised for sale.

---

quote:

---

I live (in my mind) in an ancient world

---

quote:

---

sniper bidding is cheating.

---

quote:

---

What I meant was that when I see a person who has never bid on things before, (or perhaps one bid), and the bids go up in one dollar incriments until it gets to certain high and then that bidder stops ...

---

I am afraid you raise the same question that many members here had explained previously (in 2 posts) how the Ebay auction works. The show of increments bid you've seen is resulted by another bidders (it can be yourself) who was trying to approach the highest bidder bit by bit (e.g. for every a dollar). So he didn't actually put a bid by a dollar increments.

Maybe,
 

---

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on August 04, 2009, 12:04 AM:
 
Osi,I'm with you 100%.Actually,in live auctions,you can't play the games that get played on Ebay.Sometimes I wish the people who defend the flawed system would try to change it.Alas,just hearing that someone would use the last minute bid software to get a hand up on just regular people is a damn shame.Not everyone who has a computer or bids on ebay is a computer whiz who can take advantage of a system.But it is a different time Osi and most people today are looking to get an edge on others.It all started when some jackass wrote a book called "Looking out for number 1".It's been all downhill since.
 

---

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on August 04, 2009, 02:21 AM:
 
I see nothing wrong with sniping. Personally, I don't always have the time to watch an auction right through. I enter my maximum bid with Justsnipe and they bid for me.

To be honest, Osi, I think you're overly suspicious of the whole thing.
Ebay is what it is. If you don't like it don't play!
Simple as that, sir!
 

---

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on August 04, 2009, 03:25 AM:
 
I'll back Michael. Sniping is a good method to behave reasonnably and the only way I've been bidding on Ebay for the last three or four years. I just type the maximum bid I'm willing to pay and let the software do the work. I'm not ready (or am I fed up?) to stay up all night waiting for the auction to end with that insane urge to increase the bid when the countdown clock is running towards zero.
I remember that you widely advertised that you were leaving Ebay ("bid Ebay a fond adieu" and your "desire to bring your collecting days to a close" in your own words). Everybody makes mistakes, just don't complain when you come back.
As Michael wisely said, if you don't like, don't play.
Chill or ghost bidding is one of the risks that go with the job.
 

---

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 04, 2009, 08:41 AM:
 
First of all, I am using snipers service (www.snipestreet.com) for all bids,..... unles for an item that I have been looking deadly so far.

Osi and John, it seems to me that you don't agree with sniper service, since it will decrease the meaning of auction itself.

Let me tell you something, at least I have 2 main reasons of not to against the sniper service.

First, what will I (you) do if I (you) find "A Derann Star Wars full feature with $9.99 starting price"? (or in your case, perhaps "Popeye and AliBaba").

Will I put my bid on sniper service....? The answer is absolutely NO!

As the starting price is quite low, I am going to put my bid first, at least to test the water, by putting $20 bid. At least it secure me that my ID is on the bidder list.

Why I am not going to use sniper service? Because it is a machine and still a machine. There are many variables that can fail the systems, eg. low bandwidth at the end of auction, electric supply may cut off, another bidder use the same service, network busy,etc, etc...

And I think it is not only me thinking the same. Every people use the sniper service will have the same worry.

So, each of us who find the item that they have been looking so far, will try to approach the bid using the normal Ebay system.

What is going to happen in the example case above?... someone will outbid me eventually and the price will keep going up, so on...and so on...

My reason no. 2 is going to be written later on, after you understand this.
 

---

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on August 04, 2009, 09:28 AM:
 
I'm sorry I even bothered to mention it - Seems everytime I innocently refer to something, the escalation causes me no undue tension - I'm almost ready to call it quits sometimes
 

---

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on August 04, 2009, 09:37 AM:
 
I have to say I don`t like the snipe bid things and wouldn`t use one myself.

Just feels wrong to me and also unpleasnat when you are on the recieving end.

Thats one of the reasons I tend to do buy it nows on ebay, also when I`ve done odd open auctions in the past and things have gone for more than I feel they are worth I charge less or do a part refund, but only do BIN,s anyway.

I think when ordinary collectors start to see ebay as a way to make or sqweeze more money from others collectors its a bit sad. That often seem to go hand in hand with a less reasonable more money orientated self driven adjusting of thier personal standards, not always though, there are some good sorts about too.

Ebay is a good open way to show and source things that in a way keeps the hobby going but I do wish there was a better less monolithic way with less of the odd unpleasantries that go with that.

Thank goodness for this and other film interested forums.

Best Mark.
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 04, 2009, 09:57 AM:
 
I feel bad that I brought bad feelings upon our own Shorty. Don't feel downcast. You are not responsible for my gripes with ebay. That's me own cross to bear.

The bidding that I refer to in that specific auction is a person who does not appear to have any desire to really buy the item. They are there merely to inflate the price.

Don't get me wrong. I was actually tempted to do so myself on one of my own auctions about three years ago. I had thought of starting another ebay identity, just to bid up an auction, when someone else would bid, but my conscience spoke to me.

Hey, I'm not a squeaky clean person myself. Some of the things I've either done for my country (in service) I wish to God that I could take back, or other terrible choices of my teen years were horrible. Somewhere along the line, I developed a conscience and integrity.

I think it comes down to thinking about how would I feel if I was on the receiving end of the action in question, (for instance, if I was the one being sniped, and it was something I REALLY wanted). I came to a point of no longer saying, "screw the other guy, I'm numero uno!".

If I win something, then it's a legitimate win. If I lose on an auction, then that is fine, as long as I played fair. Bid sniping is really not playing fair. It's like the person as a child, (and you still see it as adults) when a person cuts in line. Everyone gets pissed at the arrogant S.O.B. who just thinks because he can get away with something, then that makes it O.K.

Now, of course, that person, who will cut in line, will suddenly feel that he has been wronged is someone cuts in front of him! Oh boy, he'll get really pissed, but hey, it's O.K. to cut in front of all those other people who played by the rules.

The bid sniper is the person cutting in line. Can you get away with it? Yes? Does that make it right? No.

"We'll OSI, we don't live in a perfect world, so that makes it O.K.

Every time we say this, we're allowing ourselves to slide, as a society, just that much closer to the precipice, inches away from falling off the edge, and then, as were falling, having the nerve to look surprised ... "Duh, how did we come to this?"

"Cutting in line (sniping) is A-O.K. because I can get away with it"

"Drinking and driving is A-O.K., because I can get away with it."

(tell that to a friend of mine who had they're four year old smeared into the pavement a year ago.)

... and the depravity goes on and on.

Wow, I didn't mean for this to become so big of an issue!

Oh, to answer one statement. I never, when I was "leaving ebay" was leaving completely. I was going to stop selling, but my desire to still buy off of ebay was never going to end completely, as there is always the chance that something that you want will come up. It's just the selling end that I was leaving.
 

---

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on August 04, 2009, 10:48 AM:
 
Osi said:
"Every time we say this, we're allowing ourselves to slide, as a society, just that much closer to the precipice, inches away from falling off the edge, and then, as were falling, having the nerve to look surprised ... "Duh, how did we come to this?" "

I really don't feel auction sniping is quite as depraved as all that...
 

---

Posted by Glenn Brady (Member # 715) on August 04, 2009, 12:44 PM:
 
There are times when I'd like to bid for an item when I'm not at a computer (e.g., when an eBay listing ends in the wee hours of the morning or when I'm away) and a sniping service is an ideal way to do that. In addition, my DSL service is occasionally unreliable, so, when I want some assurance that I'll have an opportunity to bid for an item if the link goes down, a sniping service again proves invaluable. Although I'll occasionally bid for an item well before its listing ends, I've found over the course of years that I've got a better chance of winning an auction (and winning at a lesser price) if I bid in the closing seconds. Whether I do the bidding myself or employ a sniping service, I'm optimizing my chances and playing by the rules. To say that this constitutes "cutting in line" is ridiculous. While there are undoubtedly behaviors at eBay that shouldn't be tolerated, sniping isn't one of them.
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 04, 2009, 01:33 PM:
 
It's not rediculous.

Though I understand the point of not being able to be up, (for instance) at the time that the auction ends and it's the only way a person can bid. No, that's not really true. I know that if an item that I wanted ended at three in the morning, it's not that much of a stretch for me to set the clock for three and be there.

(on a humorous note, wouldn't it be funny if a person sets a sniper program on an auction, dies in his sleep, and wins the auction anyhow? Oh well, I've always liked morbid humor!)

A person who says that sniper bidding isn't a bad thing, would raise hell if someone else sniped them, plain and simple.

Though I will agree that someone sniping an auction isn't going to launch the missiles to end World War 3, people in general, do not realize that that when they allow either in society or they're own lives some form of compromise, (and the heart knows the truth, whether the lips will admit it), each step is a step rarely upward, but downward.

Back in the 60's (or perhaps the late 50's) the Russian premier, (I forget, but I bet it was Kruschev), when asked how to destroy they're one time nemesis, the USA, (some over there would still consider us the nemesis, and no doubt some over here would say the same.) stated that they wouldn't havwe to fire a single missile over here to truly defeat us.

Nope, the defeat would be to change the ideals, the very thought patterns. The best way to defeat the USA is to bring down, peg by peg, from inside. Not a single missile need be fired.

While I'm speaking on generalities, it does all come down to the conscience of the individual. Though I would like to honestly be the winner of the auction, I won't attempt to win it if it means taking an unfair advantage over the next person.

Respecting the other person and they're rights is just part of living within a society. The whole "I'm looking out for numero uno!" mentality, in the end, leads to chaos.

and to think, this just started out looking for advice. Quite entertaining, though.
 

---

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on August 04, 2009, 01:41 PM:
 
So, you're suggesting that any of us who use sniping software are selfish by nature and only interested in "looking after numero uno"??

Thats just a gross oversimplification, sir.

BTW, I'm pretty certain I've been beaten in auctions by snipers - has never bothered me other than disappointment that I didn't win that item. It's just the way that it goes with Ebay.
 

---

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 04, 2009, 01:50 PM:
 
It seems the discussion now a bit off topic shifting to discus about sniper bidding service.

OK before I continue with this, firstly I'd like to get back to the initial issue made by Osi.

Osi, have you understood now about how Ebay auction work? Because this is your 3rd post questioning another bidder that has outbid you in the last minutes or put an increment by a dollar.

So, from your story above, I would say no one has done cheating on the auction you mentioned.

If you have understood this than I'll continue with another topic about sniping.

As I said, I have another main reason why not to against snipping (live snipping or with bid sniper service).

REASON NO. 2

If Ebay feels sniping (using sniper service or just do live sniping) is detrimental to the Ebay's live itself, Ebay can easily do to avoid this:

1. To avoid live-sniping, Ebay can regulate an automatic auction time extension by giving another additional 5 minutes, 10 minutes extension or whatever, every time there is a sniper bidding in, say, 30 seconds before an auction end. So there is no a sniper in a real sense. This has been discussed before, but Ebay did (haven't) take this action

2. To avoid sniper software or web-based, Ebay can automatically (a very easy job) change the web page structure in 1 minute or 30 sec before an auction end. If you know how the software works, they just a machine, which only understand the structure of web page that previously installed. Once Ebay change (for example) the URL link or the place to put our bid, then, there is no automatic software that CAN understand. Only a person who is doing live-snipe can place a bid. This has been once done by Ebay and all sniper service have failed to snip. But then Ebay didn't take any more action, and just leave the sniper services are taking the action.

So, for sniper service, as Glenn mentioned above, there are a lot of reasons people using it. Remember, the time difference because our globe is divided in 24 hours time frame. You cannot (or are unpleasant to) bid if the item is ended during your sleeping time.

Also some people worry on their bad internet connection, especially those who live in developing countries (eg. my self, I used to live in Indonesia and Fiji) using a dial up connection which may fail a bid in the last minutes because of bad network.

Lastly, for Osi, if you think you really love an item (for example, there is Popeye and Alibaba right now), DO NOT try to put a bid by a few dollar in hoping that will be the final price. Put the maximum highest you never imagined (say $150). I believe you will win the auction. And if someone is approaching you by $145, then you still win the auction but has to pay for $145.50. Don't be sorry with this result, because that what you are willing to pay for.

Indeed, if there has been no one with the same interest it will stay at $9 (as it starting price) and you pay for a very low price. It is your lucky day. But remember, it is not only you who is interested for the very same item.

(ps: sorry to mention the very exact item, because you mentioned your interest that reel many times and now is on Ebay).

quote:

---

The bidding that I refer to in that specific auction is a person who does not appear to have any desire to really buy the item. They are there merely to inflate the price.

---

quote:

---

if you look at ebay's regulations, they frown on this as well.

---

quote:

---

the eBay system will automatically bid for you until you reach your bid maximum.

---

quote:

---

Winbert ...

I'm not sure if they, ebay as a whole, have an actual policy, but I wrote them with a question about this a few years back and they stated that they personally frown on it.

---

quote:

---

I don't know how it would work however, unless they could identify where the bid came from perhaps,

---

quote:

---

By the way, I didn't really understand where you were going with your replies earlier in this series of posts, but I do appreciate your efforts Winbert.

---

quote:

---

you can always outrageously bid on the item to secure that you win it, (which works unless, the auction has a program working on it that will bring up the last bidder to one dollar less than you bid.

---

quote:

---

Years ago,ebay was a pretty fun

---

quote:

---

a lot of you guys missed the good old days where collectors knew each other

---

quote:

---

,actually called each other and made real interacting.

---

quote:

---

,you can find lots more film if you actually read the few film pubs left,

---

quote:

---

I put a thread on about a guy in Tennessee who has film stuff than all of us combined .

---

Aha... it may be true... but it may also you exaggerate....

I don't know how do you find how many films I have.... and 1000 more of members here..?

OK, now this thread is again shifting to another topic.

regards,
 

---

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on August 07, 2009, 06:41 AM:
 
I do agree with John in this respect.

Although I do believe that Ebay has been important as a source of prints to the collector (in 16mm anyway) there are indeed many other sources. I've come across many collectors by word of mouth through the collector network, who have no web presence at all - and I've enjoyed speaking with US collectors on the telephone, regarding a particular print or just shooting the collecting breeze.

Theres also CLASSIC IMAGES which now has ads from many of the collectors who used to advertise in BIG REEL.

Overall, though I use Ebay, I'd much sooner deal with someone directly, thereby building a relationship with them over the longterm.

To get back on topic - as I've said before, Ebay is what it is. It has its drawbacks - there will always be shill bidding and there will always be sniping - but, either use it and accept the downsides or leave it alone. There is no sense in using it, but, constantly whinging about it at the same time.

-Mike
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 07, 2009, 08:36 AM:
 
Aaaah, but please let us have our personal whines!

We all have our things we like to complain about. I think the only time people really get bent out of shape is when one whines about what another cherishes; then the back hair rises ...

... and I've got a lot of it!

EWWWW!

(hee hee)

Micheal's right, ebay is what it is, and my ship didn't come in, (Popeye Meets Ali Baba), but it will show up again and perhaps my long wait will pay off for it.

In fact, a long wait DOES tend to pay off in the end!
 

---

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 07, 2009, 09:33 AM:
 
Winbert,

You have great mind. Very logical. Thanks.
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 07, 2009, 09:55 AM:
 
Ya know, collecting is a funny thing.

I bet at least one third of my collection is made up of things that I got caught up in bidding for or was a spur of the moment desire.

I wouldn't be surprised if I end up letting go one third of my collection over time, (a long time )

But then there are those items that you REALLY want, and when you do finally get a good copy, your quite happy, (and when you get them by fair-play, it's even better!).

I'm reminded of my long search for "Hoppity Goes to Town". I went through five bad prints in a row, and then, out of nowhere, I recieved those two GREAT prints, all at one, and two for less than the price of one of the bad that I bought from overseas!

The victory was sweet!
 

---

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on August 07, 2009, 11:32 AM:
 
Osi,

I agree. Feast or famine has happened several times for me. EBay just seems to cough up the 'print I can't live without' exactly at the moment when I have said "I am going to be frugal for the next few months, and just pay my bills."

And that, of course, is when the collector in me (I imagine it's akin to being an alcoholic) says: 'forget that, just this one more time; it might never come around again....'

Small wonder women are exasperated with us.

Claus.
 

---

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 07, 2009, 12:47 PM:
 
Osi,

What is the name of the auction in question? Is it sean41966?
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 07, 2009, 02:54 PM:
 
Yep Dan wins the kewpie doll!

There was one thing good that came out of this. I know know that there were at least four people who put out this Popeye two reeler:

Atlas Films
Niles Films
Perry's Films
De Maio Film services.

The only one I have seen verified color on (all pink these days) is the Niles one. I hope that one I didn't win today was good color, if another from these film providers shows up again.

Hey, I wouldn't even mind a NIles if I could find a good color copy.
 

---

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 07, 2009, 03:58 PM:
 
THat seller (sean41966) has listed so many good titles. How could he get them!!!

Osi, read my other post about Ali Baba from De Maio, .... So you can narrow your search.

thanks
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 07, 2009, 05:50 PM:
 
Winbert ... could you make a link to your post about De Maio & Popeye Meets Ali Baba?
 

---

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 1183) on August 07, 2009, 06:25 PM:
 
I don't understand what the fuss over sniping is all about. eBay is not and never was an auction in the traditional sense of the word. What they are, and have always been, is a highest offer received by a given time. That being said, eBay has never recommended that you sit on line and keep upping your bid, and that is not how they designed their system. They want you to put in the maximum you are willing to pay, and let them raise the increments up to your maximum as needed. Since this is the way eBay is designed to work, it does not matter whether you put your max bid directly into eBay, or use a sniping service. Ultimately, the highest bid is going to win. The only people who lose out on this are those who are using eBay incorrectly by incrementing their bids themselves.

I have used eSnipe.com for over ten years now, and have never had a problem with them not placing the bid.

If eBay did not want automated software to be able to place bids, they could have ended it simply by requiring you to enter randomly generated (in a graphic) letters and numbers, as many event ticketing sites do. They have not because sniping does not interfere with the way they wish their site to work.

eBay does have a serious problem with shill bidding, especially since they made it impossible to see who you are bidding against, or even who won a action. This is one more reason to never bid more that you think an item is worth.
 

---

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 07, 2009, 07:04 PM:
 
Mitchell,

I could not agree with you more. Thanks for straightening this out.
 

---

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 07, 2009, 08:23 PM:
 
Mitchell, I fully agree with you about snipping.

Osi, about De Maio and Ali Baba, please refer to your own thread at Film for Sale section.

cheers,
 

---

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on August 07, 2009, 08:58 PM:
 
Winbert,I was making a point about how much stuff this guy has,For God;s sake,I wasn't disparaging anybody's collection.It doesn't matter the size of a collection,it's the love of it.Our film collection has no relation to out appendege size,I think you know what I mean.Why oh why do people get so worked up if someone feels ebay isn't THE answer for film collectors?I tried to offer real and useful alternatives and I get reamed.Some of you guys are just to funny.
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 07, 2009, 09:17 PM:
 
Just one last comment from me about sniping ...

First, a concession ...

I must concede one point about sniping. One statement about sniping I could go along with. Say you were going to be on vacation and you honestly wouldn't be able to place a bid. I could understand it then, as there would be no way you could do so otherwise. Hey, if something makes sense, I can accept it.
Still the sniper would risk paying a terribly high amount for an auction, but that is they're risk.

No, my point about fairness was this ...

Of course, no one knows the sniper is there. If it was known that a sniper was there, what would be the point of even bothering to bid? You know you wouldn't win anyhow, no matter how high you bid. About the only pleasure you would have in bidding on an auction that a sniper has already won, (for in truth, that is what has happened) is making the sniper really pay out his or her butt for the auction.

The existence of snipe bidding eliminates the auction, period.
There is no auction. It's already bought. The only question is how much will the sniper pay.

Therefore, it's certainly not fair-play.

I know I sound like some darned boy scout, (and believe me, I never was a "boy scout". It wasn't until I was older that I actually developed a conscience and morality about things.),
but that's pretty much it.

Those that play fairly and honorably may be silly to most people these days but, (and this I know from experience), when your in the foxhole, and you want someone watching your back, you want the "boy scout", not the guy looking out for themself.
 

---

Posted by Glenn Brady (Member # 715) on August 07, 2009, 10:26 PM:
 
Osi, you seem determined to fabricate 'facts' to support your argument that those who bid in the closing seconds of eBay auctions, with or without a proxy service, are without conscience and morally inferior to you. Such a position verges on the idiotic.

You write, "If it was known that a sniper was there, what would be the point of even bothering to bid? You know you wouldn't win anyhow, no matter how high you bid." This is just wrong, laughably so. If you bid early in an auction, offering, say, $200.00 for an item that had a starting price of $9.95, how would a sniper know you've offered $200.00? All that he/she sees is a bid of $9.95.

You write, "The existence of snipe bidding eliminates the auction, period. There is no auction. It's already bought. The only question is how much will the sniper pay." Wrong again, for the same reason. Sniping doesn't imply clairvoyance on the part of the bidder.

You write, "Therefore, it's certainly not fair-play." Wrong again, but it's clear that you're on the 'morally superior' bandwagon and aren't getting off no matter how wrong you are.

You write, "I know I sound like some darned boy scout, (and believe me, I never was a "boy scout". It wasn't until I was older that I actually developed a conscience and morality about things.), but that's pretty much it." No, you sound like someone who hasn't got a clue. Sniping an auction isn't an assured way of winning an auction. Figure it out.
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 07, 2009, 11:11 PM:
 
Hey, I just thought of something! When I was reading Brady's hilariously entertaining comments, his remarks did make me think of something ...

I might actually have sniping and something else confused, or are they're two forms of sniper bidding?

I may have assumed (wrongly) that a snipe bid automatically enters a bid 50 cents or a dollar higher than the highest bid, just enough to win an auction. Am I wrong about that, or are there snipe programs that WILL automatically do that, as I have heard that they're are programs that do this, or are they called something different altogether?

Still, if I was wrong about snipe bids, hey, I can always learn.

Still, the Brady IS amusing!
 

---

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 08, 2009, 12:20 AM:
 
Osi, my friend,

Glenn is right. When using sniping software or automatically sniping, you have to enter a proxy bid. This proxy would be the a set amount not an amount that changes infinitely in increments as the opposition's bidding occurs. Say if I used a sniping program I would enter my highest bid of i.e. $50.75 on an auction that started with an opening bid of $9.99. If the bidding reached $34.00 in the last 10 seconds and then 4 seconds before the auction ended some else bid $50.80 they would win not me.

P.S. I was a boy scout.
 

---

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on August 08, 2009, 01:44 AM:
 
God forbid it doesn't automatically bid higher!Watch how quick the fair and honest bidders would download the software!
 

---

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on August 08, 2009, 02:23 AM:
 
Ah I get it now Osi, so you were confused thinking sniping bidding meant automatically winning no matter what the price - as Dan states the bidder sets their maximum amount, not the sniping software, so now perhaps you will sleep better knowing you still really do have a chance of winning as long as you bid high enough - BTW I still can't believe you bid so low for your 'must have' Popeye film!

Kevin
 

---

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on August 08, 2009, 03:24 AM:
 
It has been mentioned at least twice early on in this thread that the sniper enters a MAXIMUM bid!!
God, give me strength!!

 

---

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on August 08, 2009, 03:58 AM:
 
Calm down now MIchael, think of your blood pressure.

The "E-bay subject" is akin to the last "suitcase on the airport baggage carousel". It just keeps coming around and people keep "looking at the tag/label" knowing full well it's not their suitcase.....but they have to check anyway.
 

---

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on August 08, 2009, 04:09 AM:
 
This thread has been fascinating, but Osi, I'm still not sure you fully understand how sniping works, because if you did, you would have to concede that your earlier arguments were baseless.

Sniping only gives the sniper a limited advantage over those that he is bidding against who have put in proxy bids.

Ie: if Pop Eye & Ali Ba Ba comes up and the opening bid is £9.99 you might think I want this enough to pay £45.00 for it, so you put in your proxy bid of £45.25. You then become the current high bidder with a bid of £9.99 on the item.

Unknown to you somebody using sniping software comes along who also wants this film and they make a proxy bid through their (note "their" not "they're" as in "they are" ) sniping software of £35.00.

To all intents and purposes you are still the high bidder at £9.99 and the sniper has at this stage no idea what your proxy bid is - so doesn't know he is going to loose to you.

Then another guy comes in and sticks a proxy bid of £25.00 on Pop Eye and the bid goes up to £25.50 and it's still yours.

Then just as the auction ends the snipers bid goes in at £35.00 meaning that he has lost it and you get the film for £35.50. It was his loss because had he bid against you in the normal way he would have know that you had out bid him with your proxy bid and might well have chosen to up his max...

Nothing unfair about that.

Is that clear now?

Mike
 

---

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on August 08, 2009, 04:17 AM:
 
Mike,

That is the simplest explanation I've seen - thanks.

Osi,

You got that? It ain't difficult.

Keith,

Its OK - I've taken an extra pill!!
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 08, 2009, 08:33 AM:
 
O.K., I've got that too, but then, what is that "hardware" or whatever, (I don't know what it would be called), that automatically enters one bid higher amounts than what was last bid.
No matter how high you bid, it enters one bid higher?

It would be nice to at least identify that.

I knew what snipe bidding was, but on that one detail I had it wrong, (that no matter what you bid, the "snipe" program will bid higher).

I think a better title for this series of posts would have been "Snipe 101"
 

---

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 08, 2009, 09:32 AM:
 
I give up.
 

---

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on August 08, 2009, 09:55 AM:
 
Osi

You still don't get it do you?

I don't think there is software such as you describe and even if it were possible to create such a programme it would be unecessary.

If you really wanted to buy a film or anything else at any price then all you need to do is put a ridiculously high proxy bid in.

Say in the above scenario you wanted to buy Pop Eye & Ali ba ba at any cost you could have put a proxy bid in of say £1,000,000. you would still only have paid £35.50 for it though because that was the amount necessary to out bid the next highest bidder.

It's extremely unlikely that you would get out bid at £1,000,000 but if someone did put in a proxy bid (or a snipe) of say £1,500,000 they would win Pop Eye for £1,000,005.

I'm not surprised Ebay has been such a bad experience for you, perhaps now you understand it a bit better you can start to enjoy it!

Mike

ps: I'm not advocating putting £1,000,000 bids in for anything! Just thought I'd mention that before the law suits start pouring in...
 

---

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on August 08, 2009, 10:18 AM:
 
Let's "cross thread" this with "Name that film"

"I got it! I got it! I don't got it!"
 

---

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on August 08, 2009, 10:36 AM:
 
Let me stop banging my head in the wall for a minute to say,can you people cut Osi a break! First, not understanding sniping is not a crime!I can understand his confusion because I have heard that a software exists that DOES automatically increase the bid.The fact if there is such a thing or not is moot.Osi has heard the same thing.If it doesn't exist,great!Because it would really bite if it does.And again,having issues with ebay is not a crime.Get ripped off a couple times on there and see if you still think the same way.Hang in,Osi,I'm with you.
 

---

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on August 08, 2009, 10:56 AM:
 
Hang on a second John - let's not get "heavy" about this. No one, as far as I can see, is "having a go at Osi" about not understanding "sniping", or "of having issues with E-Bay".

Just merely trying to help him understand a process and keep the subject "light".

E-Bay is there,like it or not. No one makes anyone use it, against their will - it's the individuals choice. As for bidding preferences, again it's a matter of choice.

If the type of software that you suspect exists, are E-bay going to do anything about it? I doubt it, because at the end of the day, they still get paid.

As for being "ripped off" - it's not a monopoly thing - most of us collectors have been there also, at times.

You pays your money and takes your chance.

"If you don't want to win the lottery, don't buy a ticket!"

It's all about choice in the end.
 

---

Posted by Glenn Brady (Member # 715) on August 08, 2009, 11:09 AM:
 
How is getting outbid for an item "getting ripped off"? In an auction, the high bid wins. The high bidder isn't cheating those against whom he/she competes. Why is that so difficult to understand? Osi ought to cut us a break. If he doesn't understand how sniping works, he shouldn't behave as if he's an authority on the subject.
 

---

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on August 08, 2009, 11:17 AM:
 
John

I'm really not trying to give Osi a hard time. Honestly.

Just trying to help him to understand how the system works because it has become clear as this thread has developed that he hasn't fully understood how sniping and proxy bidding works.

My point about this illusive software is - as far as I can understand it - that there is no need for it to exist. I might be misunderstanding what it is that you and Osi have seen advertised and I would be pleased if you could explain how it is supposed to work.

But it seems to me that the proxy bid system - which is the basis of all Ebay auctions - negates the need for this software...

AS I say, I might be misunderstanding what it is that this software is supposed to do but if it is simply to put a higher bid in than the highest existing bid, then isn't that what proxy bidding does anyway?

Sometimes postings on forums can sound controversial or antagonisitic when they really aren't meant to be. I don't mean to antagonise anyone - just trying to help...

Mike
 

---

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on August 08, 2009, 01:51 PM:
 

Nice one, Keith.

HIGH ANXIETY is exactly what I'm beginning to experience here..........

 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 08, 2009, 01:56 PM:
 
Just to let Jeff, Mike and everyone else know ...

I don't feel put on. It is very hard to actually "get under my skin" and no one has on this forum to this day.

Believe me, I do understand what sniping is. What I think I have been talking about all this time is NOT snipe bidding altogether.

It's another whole program.

I'm sure that John and I can't be the only ones who know about this software. Perhaps I have not been explaining myself clearly enough. I'll give it one more go.

As someone already said, snipe bidding really isn't necessary, unless one is not able to be there for the end of the auction.
After all, I can, at the very end of the auction put on the auction ...

(hey, I think Mikes idea was good, lets all make 1,000.000 dollar bids ...... now THERE'S good sarcasm!)

... an outrageously high bid, and other bidders, find themselves being constantly "beat to the punch", seemingly making it look like no matter how much they bid, they will be outbid.

No, what I was talking about is this ...

A program that does not have an outrageously high bid put on it by the bidder. What I'm talking about is a program that, in and of itself, automatically bids up one dollar or more than the highest bid. Once being set into motion, the bidder need not even make an outrageous high bid, as the program automatically bids up.

The snipe bid program doesn't do anything automatically, except place that one high bid that the bidder entered into the program, to be delivered in the last ten or so seconds of the auction. The snipe bid software only enters one bid and does not automatically enter more4 bids. Once again, I get that.

Believe me, I state, yet once again, that I KNOW what a snipe program is, and at least I have learned one thing ... that I was mistaking snipe software for this other program.

Micheal, I am talking about this other program, and not snipe programs.

At any rate, I didn't get me "Popeye" film.

Oh ... and Keith ...

Was it the "Music Man" ? I'm sure the quote, "It happens to me all the time" was from "The Music Man"

once again, to make very clear, I don't feel like I've been beat on or insulted in any ... I LUV YOU GUYS!!
 

---

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on August 08, 2009, 02:16 PM:
 
"Don't insult me, you overgrown scrap pile!" - C3P0 Star Wars.

No Osi - not the "Music Man" and sorry Michael, not "High Anxiety" either.

"I got it! I got it! - I don't got it!" is from "The Goonies" uttered by the very funny character called "Chunk" Cohen.
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 08, 2009, 02:22 PM:
 
Keith ... That line reminds me of ...

"Were gonna make it!"
"No we won't!"
"Were gonna make it!"
"No we won't!"

"We're not gonna make it-BOOSH!"

What film ... (hint ... classic comedy!)
 

---

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on August 08, 2009, 02:34 PM:
 
Keith,

I don't know about the Goonies but, I think you'll find that as Brophy tries to lift a heavy suitcase in HIGH ANXIETY he says: " I got it....I got it.....I got it....(drops the suitcase) I ain't got it".
OK, not exactly the same I suppose........
 

---

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on August 08, 2009, 02:39 PM:
 
So, Osi,

If you and I were both after Pop Eye & Ali Ba Ba and I put in a bid of £500 and you used this programme you describe, would you win Pop Eye for £501? Just as though you had put in an outrageously high proxy or snipe bid. Or is there something else I'm not uderstanding...

If the above is the case then really a high proxy bid would do everything this programme would do, surely?

I am genuinely interested because I still don't fully understand what this programme is meant to do other than out bid the other bidders, which you could do by putting a high proxy bid in.

Please help...

Mike
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 08, 2009, 04:47 PM:
 
We're getting somewhere now Micheal.

There is no "proxy bid" (at least, if I understand where your coming from). There is no high bid placed. The software immediately outbids the other bids, but not by already having an outrageously high bid already placed, but by simply placing a "one up" bid on whatever the previous high is was.
 

---

Posted by Chris Smith (Member # 132) on August 08, 2009, 05:02 PM:
 
I never heard of such a thing. Where does this exist, Osi?
 

---

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on August 08, 2009, 05:18 PM:
 
I have had the phenominum of being forced up to my max bid by a strange going on a fair few times , not on film much though funnily enough.
Its now harder to actually see who with ebays daft cloaking set up, what on earth is all that about, as it only makes it easier for multiple ebay holders !!!

One particularly I was bid up to my max by a £1 a go and then when looked at the bidder they had bid on a few bits that month ( and thats all you could access) but not actually bought anything for a few years, I think 2 items in total way back.

I was told there is a way you can work out what a bidder has bid so thereby push them up to it.

I think I`m in the same ball park here as Ois but I don`t think its a programme !!!

On your auctions Osi why not work out what you want all in for the film and would be a fair buy as well and do it Buy It Now thereby all of your auctions will happily avoid any of the issues mentioned.

Best Mark.
 

---

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on August 08, 2009, 05:26 PM:
 
Osi

This programme would surely have to have the possibility of setting a max amount otherwise it would be madness to let it carry on bidding for you at will against other bidders, if it didn't have a max bid facility you could find it had bid up to that ludicrous max bid that I sited above if it, for example, ever came across somebody else using the same programme and then the two started bidding against each other.

So if you are able to set a max amount which would be determined by (a) how much you can afford and (b) how much the item is worth to you, then it would be exactly the same as setting a proxy bid which is the standard way of bidding on Ebay anyway.

That's why I'm puzzled about what this programme is supposed to offer the buyer.

Can you or John find the advert you both mentioned or a link to it? It would be interesting to see what exactly it proffesses to do.

Thanks

Mike
 

---

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on August 08, 2009, 05:46 PM:
 
Its just not possible to use such a programme. If two independent bidders are using it without a maximum limit, then there would be no end to the bidding (exaggeration for effect - but, you know what I mean).

It's nonsense, chaps.

[ August 09, 2009, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: Michael O'Regan ]
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 08, 2009, 06:29 PM:
 
I don't think it's necessarily non-existent.

It would work fine, as long as two of the same program/software didn't face off against each other. It would have to then, as part of the program, be able to identify, before going into operation, as to whether there was already another of the same program already tacked onto an auction, at which point, it would state so, to avoid two of the same software bidding an item up to infinity, (though that would be awful darn funny).

... and, to avoid such a mishap, it would only bid-up in the last seconds. Even two software programs of the same kind can only bid up so much in ten seconds and be successful.

John may have better info on it.

This is actually turning into a very interesting read!

To bad I DON'T have the technical skills to make such a software, IF it doesn't exist ... (snicker!)


 

---

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on August 08, 2009, 11:12 PM:
 
Look in the Classified in Classic Images.I think june or july,don't worry,it's avalible online.It's funny,I spend very little time online and I've heard of it.And,from my understanding,theres nop need for snipe bidding.If I bid $50 on sonething a day before an auction ends and that's all I intend to pay,there's no need for it,is there?And yes,while I've used ebay,it ain't perfect and if people would offer up enough complaints to ebay rather than coddle it,problems and all,you might be able to get some of the bad parts of ebay fixed.
 

---

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on August 09, 2009, 02:43 AM:
 
Osi, give it up - it's not an interesting read. With all respect, it's nonsense. Nobody in their right mind is ever going to take a chance on snipe bidding without limit.

John,
I've checked in CI - the only thing anywhere in the Classifieds is www.gavelsnipe.com - Is this who you are referring to? This is just a normal sniping outfit. You have to enter your maximum bid. It does not simply keep on bidding until it tops every other bid.
The advantage of sniping as opposed to just entering your maximum bid at the start? - You don't "show your hand" until the final seconds, thus hopefully preventing the price being driven up.
 

---

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on August 09, 2009, 05:01 AM:
 
Hi Osi I think you have just invented a posting system to see how far temperatures go up.

I`am at a bit of a loss here why people are so concerned over what Osi thinks.

Say what you like politely, ponder what you like,and Osi always puts things in a nice firendly and open way.

Best Mark.
 

---

Posted by Glenn Brady (Member # 715) on August 09, 2009, 07:33 AM:
 
Mark wrote, "I`am at a bit of a loss here why people are so concerned over what Osi thinks. Say what you like politely, ponder what you like,and Osi always puts things in a nice firendly and open way."

Re-read what Osi wrote earlier:

"If I win something, then it's a legitimate win. If I lose on an auction, then that is fine, as long as I played fair. Bid sniping is really not playing fair. It's like the person as a child, (and you still see it as adults) when a person cuts in line. Everyone gets pissed at the arrogant S.O.B. who just thinks because he can get away with something, then that makes it O.K.

Now, of course, that person, who will cut in line, will suddenly feel that he has been wronged is someone cuts in front of him! Oh boy, he'll get really pissed, but hey, it's O.K. to cut in front of all those other people who played by the rules.

The bid sniper is the person cutting in line. Can you get away with it? Yes? Does that make it right? No.

"We'll OSI, we don't live in a perfect world, so that makes it O.K.

Every time we say this, we're allowing ourselves to slide, as a society, just that much closer to the precipice, inches away from falling off the edge, and then, as were falling, having the nerve to look surprised ... "Duh, how did we come to this?"

"Cutting in line (sniping) is A-O.K. because I can get away with it"

"Drinking and driving is A-O.K., because I can get away with it."

(tell that to a friend of mine who had they're four year old smeared into the pavement a year ago.)

... and the depravity goes on and on."

This is nice and friendly? Osi didn't know what he was talking about (as he's now admitted) and yet he accused those of us who snipe as being arrogant S.O.B. cheaters on a par with drunk drivers. You expect no one to react to this nonsense?

[ August 09, 2009, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Brady ]
 

---

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on August 09, 2009, 07:47 AM:
 
Hi I did miss that line, but what I was getting at was Osi as far as I read, unless I missed soemthing else didn`t direct anything towards anyone on here.

I do think Ebay only adresses things taht hurt them, not others.
When I was ripped off completly to the tune of £100 they even kept the Fee,s, as it seems they tend to.
Thats effectively the wronged buyers money and holding on to it in even very blatant cases is a sort of theft in itself.

Best Mark.
 

---

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on August 09, 2009, 08:08 AM:
 
See - This is one reason I'm constantly for a meeting (garthering) of us collectors at a show, where we can talk alot of topics through and through - Keep it in mind, Shorty
 

---

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on August 09, 2009, 12:43 PM:
 
Shorty,

Come on over to the BFCC in October - a lot of us are to be found there.
It would be nice to meet you.
 

---

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 09, 2009, 01:04 PM:
 
Osi wrote.....

quote:

---

A person who says that sniper bidding isn't a bad thing, would raise hell if someone else sniped them, plain and simple.

---

quote:

---

I wasn't that upset about "snipers". It appears that snipers are a rather touchy bunch. Merely stating an opinion about something doesn't mean your whiney or some other less regal wording concerning it. It's merely an opinion.

---

quote:

---

Bear in mind that I am not the only person who feels this way and actually, if you look at ebay's regulations, they frown on this as well.

---

Just because many share the same opinions does not make those opinions logical or correct. One person can be right and 1000 people can be wrong. In this case I am reading many logical opinions showing that sniping on Ebay is a good bidding strategy. Please show where Ebay's regulations frown on sniping.

In a live auction they do say "going once, going twice, sold" before bring the gavel down. this gives people a last chance in the last few seconds to place another bid.
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 09, 2009, 01:56 PM:
 
Dan ...

ThanX for your opinion. It turned out, at the end of all of this, that I was wrong as to what a sniping program is. The kind of program I was talking about is what Winbert was relating to in that new post he has started.

So what I was ticked off about, turned out to not be a snipe program at all. Hey I learned something! (proof that I'm not too old).

I was fascinated at how "impassioned" folks can become about things, (hey, we figured out who snipes ... hee hee).

It turns out we only hear from some people if they get riled up, but at least we heard from some largely, new people. More discussion means more knowledge. After all, I learned something!

ThanX, by the way, for those who came to my "aid", much appreciated. My opinion is no better than anyone elses.

... but I will always do my best to err on the side of fairness.
YEP! There's that word again!

YAY! On with the onslaught!
 

---

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 09, 2009, 02:37 PM:
 
Osi,

So what has been happening is you have been outbid fair and square as they say.
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 09, 2009, 04:31 PM:
 
Sounds like that is so, though I never said that this was the case in this particular situation.

It is interesting how much this series of posts has morphed. It reminds me of the "telephone" game from our childhood. One starts the circle saying, perhaps, "My computer is on the fritz" and by the time it gets completely around the circle, it becomes, "Pie is best produced by Hans and Fritz!", or something along those lines.

Along with identifying the difference between snipe bidding and this other program, i do know the difference between the two.
Snipe bidding seems a little un-necessary, unless you wouldn't be available for the end of an auction.

Though I have no evidence to the contrary, I have heard that the program which has been earlier described, does exist.

By the way, that statement I made about ebay's reply to me wasn't a matter of policy, they just stated in a private e-mail to me from somebody behind the scenes, (who works for and at ebay), was that they personally frown upon the use of snipe bidding. As far as I know, they have no actual policy against it. Maybe it's because of just what I exampled on this series of posts.

Little is known about snipe bidding and therefore it seems that it is more the mystery of the "snipe" than the presence of sniping. As one of the other people who has posted on this has said, if ebay is still profiting by the use of the snipe, they aren't going to stop it.

Honestly, i see no need to stop it.

... and now, back to the projector!
 

---

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on August 09, 2009, 07:33 PM:
 
Okay, now I give up...I think. But first...no, not but first. I'll just exit backwards so no one will notice.

Hello, I must be going
I cannot stay
I came to say
I must be going
I’m glad I came
But just the same
I must be going... Ta-Ta!


 

---

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on August 09, 2009, 07:54 PM:
 
Found something interesting www.hugesettlemants.com
 

---

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 09, 2009, 08:14 PM:
 
Adios, Mi Amigo Lail!

I must be going too!
 

---

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on August 10, 2009, 01:46 AM:
 
A couple of things.......

Whoever bids the highest on ebay wins, software or not.

I will say that on an item that I am desperate to own, say a 200ft short that I have been after for years I will bid high. Its real value could be around $20 - $40. If I really want it I may bid $250+ just in case there is another person as crazy as I am to grab it.

Guess what, even when I have done this I have still lost an auction! I missed out on two 8 minute shorts recently with bids of hundreds of dollars on each. Someone just wanted them more than me.
 

---

Visit www.film-tech.com for free equipment manual downloads. Copyright 2003-2019 Film-Tech Cinema Systems LLC


UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2