This is topic From 8 to 16 in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on November 01, 2009, 05:41 PM:
Thinking in moving soon from 8 to 16mm. Taking, so, a little rest from 8mm. The main idea is to buy an Elmo 16CL XENON (there's already one waiting for me behind the corner).
I would be happy to receive some info about this machine, pics too if available, from other members who have or know this projector. Consider I never had or used a 16mm machine before. Well, After 30 years I've been dealing with super 8 ones, I don't think it would be so complicated or impossible, isn't it?
Thanks guys.
Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on November 01, 2009, 05:56 PM:
Gian,
Having 16mm for the first time of course you will be amazed with the picture. (similar when we moved from LD/VHS to DVD).
But then you have to think carefully about storage.
And for my self there is a personal reason, i.e is about the art of front cover. 16mm films do not come with this but only can by can. It is quite boring for me, sspecially because I don't always have enough time to play the projector. So in my limited time I just watched the 8mm artwork boxes ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
cheers,
Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on November 01, 2009, 05:59 PM:
The Elmo 16-CL Xenon (I assume you mean the black one?) is a 250W Xenon projector. Puts out about 1800 Lumens (similar to the GS-1200 Xenon). Nice machine, but one thing to check before buying one - make sure that the belt inside the rear take up arm is the plastic belt with Teeth, not the cloth belt. The cloth belt models have a rubber gasket at the bottom pulley that turns to goo over time. If the projector has the old kind of belt, you will need to have the whole take up belt and pulley system replaced. I don't know if Elmo still sells the parts - but you might be able to get them from ICECO or Larry Urbanski.
The later Elmo CX-350 and CX-550 machines all have the newer toothed belt.
You won't have any problem using the projector - these are slot loads - you just pull the film through the slot and you are ready to go. One really nice thing is that they are easy to unthread if you want to stop in the middle - something that is much harder to do on an autothread projector.
Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on November 01, 2009, 06:13 PM:
Steven makes two important points about slot loads.
1. You can easily remove film at any time during the reel.
2. You simply drape the film through the channel and lock it in with the lever.
Don't underestimate point 2, I got so tired of fixing leaders so they would thread correctly in an auto-load, one miss-thread and the leader would buckle and need to be replaced. Tape on the leader was always a problem too, not with a slot loader, just pass it through and away you go.
David
Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on November 01, 2009, 06:15 PM:
Winbert, Steven
thanks a lot for your posts.
Winbert, a friend of mine is a real magician in building box with nice artworks. This won't be a real problem. I know what you mean, anyway. All my 8mm movies are actually stored in boxes, from tiny 200feet clamshells for trailers to huge box for full features, sometimes mounted on 1200ft reels. I hope,in case, he will be in a position to make me good boxes for the new arrivals in bigger format.
Steven, thanks for all info. I still don't know if the one I will buy is black. I will ask to the guy who will probably sell the CL about the belt you are referring to. And if you guys have all additional info or a couple of pictures to post, I would be very happy ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
.
Posted by Oemer Yalinkilic (Member # 86) on November 02, 2009, 06:37 AM:
Hi Gian,
this is the way who go every S8 collector one day, maybe Iīm the only one, who go a step back and start again to collect Super8.
I sold my Elmo 16CL Xenon to Kevin, he can confirm that this is realy one of the best machines for 16mm. I like a little bit more a Bauer Selecton but the Xenon Machines of them are a little bit bulky.
But I think you go a better way if you use Super 8 and 35mm.
They are also many nice portable 35mm machines.
I can say 16mm is only a compromise, if a feature is very important for you and you need the best quality, you must have it on 35mm otherwise is Super 8 much better to handle and you can watch a movie in Stereo with italian sound.
The difference between a very good Super 8 print and 16mm is not to much. You can belive me because I had in the past many of the same movies on Super 8 later on 16mm and now on 35mm.
I want make next Time a experiment, I want borrow from a friend the Derann print of Horror of Dracula, I have already a 16mm and a 35mm Technicolor print of them. I want screen all 3 prints together to see how different are the quality.
I want use for this Test a Elmo GS 1200 and a Elmo 16CL (not Xenon) and my 35mm machine Philips FP3.
The only think I miss is the Xenon light but you have now a GS 1200 Xenon, I think you donīt need 16mm.
Best regards
Oemer
Posted by Brad Kimball (Member # 5) on November 02, 2009, 07:03 AM:
I've only been collecting 16mm for 9 years now. Prior to this I've been collecting 8mm for over 40 years. The benefit to 16mm is that you get a bigger throw with a nice clear picture. The DISadvantages are (1) Expensive format to collect, (2) Many if not most prints are former tv station, library or rental prints that have taken quite a beating, (3) No collectible boxes - just big reels that don't make for much of a display on a bookcase.
Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on November 02, 2009, 07:05 AM:
One thing there, Oemer - it depends upon what films one collects. Most of what I'm interested in are silent era up to the 40's. These are extremely hard to find, if at all available, in 35mm.
For this era, considering the number of prints available in all four gauges, I have found 16mm to be best.
-Mike
Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 1337) on November 02, 2009, 07:42 AM:
You can always collect both ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on November 02, 2009, 08:09 AM:
Oemer, Damian, Brad, Michael and David-
Thanks for all info and for all your interesting posts. I have to say that I'm not moving to 16 because I dream about a 'better definition of images' while screening. No no, nothing to do with this.
After 30 years I've been spending by collecting 8mm machines and movies I just would like to try the 16mm experience.
Oemer, I know I have just bought a very good 8mm projector (I'm referring to Ugo's Xenon) but the point is that I'd like to have titles that are not available on 8mm and, for several reasons, it seems it could be easier to find on 16.
So, Damien's statement is simple and clear. And it is probably what I will do. Collecting both formats.
Oemer, it would be great to collect 35mm and to have a portable projector. The main problem, my dear friend, is room.
It's already hard to store all my super 8. It would be the beginning of an extra problem to store 16mm machines and prints, when and if coming. But I know myself: I will keep going on in buying and buying and buying. And 35mm prints would be IMPOSSIBLE to store at home. That's why I'm quite sure I will have soon my first 16mm machine. And I'll stop there.
I like to read about Jean-Marc, for example, when he writes about his wonderful 35mm prints. But I think he has enough room, somewhere in Paris, to store all movies. And to screen them.
I personally don't. That's why I would consider this 'new experience' exactly the way I'm talking about it: NEW EXPERIENCE (and probably new titles to add to my super 8 collection). And if I won't like it? Well, I could sell everything!
I like your points of view, anyway. Just write them down!
Posted by Oemer Yalinkilic (Member # 86) on November 02, 2009, 08:27 AM:
Every collector have different requirements for his favorite genre and of his projection room.
The bigest problem is to find the right equipment for home use in 35mm but if you have it, than is 16mm no more necesery.
Yes of course, if you are looking for a special title, so you must take what you can get.
Itīs realy hard to find silent features on 35mm safety stock.
As I decide to sell my Elmo 16CL Xenon I watched a scope print of Armagedon, it was very nice after that I watched a LPP 16mm print of Return of the Jedi and I thought my old Super 8 print was not more bad than this 16mm print.
I noticed for my self, Iīm unhappy with every Cinemascope print on Super 8 and also on 16mm, this must be only 35mm.
16mm black and white original prints are on 16mm good enough and the image is sharp like a 35mm print also Technicolor british IB prints.
If you like Disneys like Pochachontas and The Beauty and the Beast, is a Super 8 the first choice becaouse you have a Stereo sound.
What I mean is, if you looking for the perfect print, is 16mm only a compromise and not the solution.
I started to collect film with Super 8 than 16mm and finaly 35mm but I owen prints in every gauges.
Some S8 prints are enough for me and I have some 16mm prints I keep them until I find a 35mm print of this title.
Gian: I have also space problems, and as I get my first 35mm projector, I thought I want never collect 35mm.
But 35mm is also in a smal room possible, you need only the right equipment.
For Super 8 is GS1200 Xenon great and if you own a Elmo 16CL Xenon, it is perfect for 16mm.
If you want 35mm, you need a machine like my Philips FP3, this is noisy like a 16mm machine, you can splice a feature on 2 reels like the Elmos I use for the other gauges.
I will make some pics, how I store my 35mm equipment.
See you later
Oemer
Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 1337) on November 02, 2009, 08:36 AM:
Brad said this once somewhere, but if you store 35mm films on 2000 foot reels, you will run into trouble, if you store them on 6000 foot reels you can really pack them in.
Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on November 02, 2009, 08:44 AM:
Well, once again thanks for all info about 35mm. But the thread would be intended for the passage from 8 to 16. I wouldn't take the KING OF KINGS format into consideration. At least by now .
Posted by Oemer Yalinkilic (Member # 86) on November 02, 2009, 09:13 AM:
Gian,
King of King is 70mm.
I donīt take a 35mm print in my collection if that was shot in 70mm, because it is only in 70mm original. Only exception in my collection is Raintree county this was shot with Camara 65 but this was never released on 70mm
Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on November 02, 2009, 09:14 AM:
Ah ah, sorry Oemer.
I forgot the BIG king eh eh. You are right!
Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 1337) on November 02, 2009, 09:16 AM:
No problem Gian. I started with 35mm, however there isn't the greatest amount of stuff over here, and shipping can be quite expensive. So I ventured into 16mm for a while, until I saw an ad in the local trading post for some films. I went over the guys house and "some films" turned out to be boxes and boxes of shorts and many mini features. So I bought everything and have been casually over the last couple of years cleaning it up and watching it. Unfortunately the previous owner had put all the features onto modified 2000 foot 16mm reels, as he must have owned or built a long play unit. So I have never actually seen a vast majority of my own collection ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on November 02, 2009, 09:19 AM:
quote:
I started with 35mm, however there isn't the greatest amount of stuff over here, and shipping can be quite expensive.
Damien, are you actually after 35?
Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 1337) on November 02, 2009, 09:25 AM:
Yeah, I'm still into my 35. I work as a projectionist anyway, so I get my fix of trailers and whatnot. I quietly lurk on the 35mm boards waiting for a print so good I'll invest in shipping down under.
Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on November 02, 2009, 10:58 AM:
Gian,
Here's a picture of the black 16-CL Xenon machine. (Thanks to Mike Coffin for the picture!)
http://www.16mm-films.net/nov09/DSC00307.JPG
Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on November 02, 2009, 11:02 AM:
Steven (and Mike, of course), thanks a lot.
It looks so GREAT. Wow ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
!
Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on November 02, 2009, 12:03 PM:
Gian
Yes I think you will enjoy 16mm, as it has its benefits...I personally collect all gauges from 8mm to 35mm (which includes 9.5 ) I have close to 500 16mm prints and would be in a heap load of trouble if I didn't work for an archive to store them....Back when I was dating my wife I was afraid to let her come to my apartment because it was all film, everywhere you looked. The prices are rarely cheap for 16mm on good clean prints unless you find things not from ebay, and I have found that condition information is often underestimated on 16mm where as the small gauge folks have actually watched their prints and know how they look....That being said I am sure everything I have said can be argued, as we all have different experiences, but welcome aboard, and I am jealous you will start right off with the Elmo Xenon, I just use the standard CL's just like I use the ST-1200's....Let me know what types of things you are looking for and maybe I'll try to send you a starter film.
Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on November 02, 2009, 12:27 PM:
Thanks a lot Dino.
And it's pretty funny to imagine your apartment full of movies everywhere. I can say mine is more or less the same (probably everyone's here on the forum eh eh eh). Very similar to a bazar! Movies, projectors, dvds, VHS tapes, records everywhere.
As soon as I will have my first 16mm projector I will let you know.
Did you have my mail? Your GIRL AND HER TRUST (sound) has left Italy today.
Next parcel to fly will be Winbert's.
Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on November 02, 2009, 12:46 PM:
Gian,
quote:
Movies, projectors, dvds ,VHS tapes, records everywhere
Boy, you hit the nail on the head!
That's my house. I think you will enjoy both formats...I do!
Bill
Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on November 02, 2009, 02:09 PM:
Ah ah ah!
I think a lot of us could state HEY, THAT'S MY HOUSE. Imagine if everyone would post here a picture of a single corner in which our beloved treasured are stored !
About you wishes... Thanks, I'm sure I will!
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 02, 2009, 04:39 PM:
I'll admit that there is more of a variety on super 8, (especially when it comes to old TV shows), but I have little enough room for Super 8 as it is, so 16Mm is out of the question ...
That, and the great titles on 16MM can be way over 1,000.00, way above my game!
Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 1337) on November 02, 2009, 05:19 PM:
The range of TV stuff can be very, very good on 16, as it was the original distribution format.
Posted by Oemer Yalinkilic (Member # 86) on November 03, 2009, 01:58 AM:
I have few Twilight Zone Episodes on 35mm, that is much better than 16mm prints, and this was used for TV too.
Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on November 03, 2009, 02:28 AM:
Great titles on 16mm over 1000, Osi?? I can't agree with that but, it would depend on what you call a "great title" I guess.
Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on November 03, 2009, 03:33 AM:
I've seen good condition Lucasfilm material (SW, IJ) go up to 2400 euros. That sum was for a pristine print of Empire. Paul Foster sold a print of SW on Ebay for 1500 euros on Ebay a couple of years ago.
Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on November 03, 2009, 03:44 AM:
Well, as for super 8 I think it depends on titles/their rarity (limited number of prints?) and on their condition...
Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on November 03, 2009, 03:49 AM:
Like I said, Jean-Marc, it depends on what you call a "great title"!!
Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on November 03, 2009, 04:11 AM:
Don't limit your formats or sell off those of your former format, you may well regret it.
I bought titles I was after on 9.5mm for several years until I finally got a projector to run them on.
When I swung to 16mm, I did leave my Super 8 for a while and even sold some, but I am glad I kept most of it. That was back in 1984!
David
Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on November 03, 2009, 04:21 AM:
Well, about me... I'm not leaving super 8 at all and not selling A SINGLE print I own (considering how hard and expensive was to create my collection).
My idea is to add 16mm prints to 8 ones. I suppose a lot of members here already do it, am I right?
Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on November 03, 2009, 06:45 AM:
Gian, pay attention that with 16mm you're not able to dub them, unless you find someone that may put magnetic stripe on it and then dubs it. Then you don't have stereo sound (in Italy only some films printed by SanPaoloFilms were in stereo, but projectors are really rare).
Furthermore, it's true you have more choice on 16mm prints, but they have worked into projectors much more than super8 prints and the risk of splices, lines and perforation damage is very high. Even last batch of italian 16mm prints from SanPaoloFilm have problem with green lines/dots troughout the print because they started to run into projectors even if prints weren't completely dry.
It's true you have a better definition, but if you're in Derann/CHC prints and expect a better quality from a 16mm, then you may be disapponted for at least 80% of films you may find.
I don't know if other collectors agree with my point of view, but collecting 16mm puts you in a different behaviour than collecting super8 or 35mm, you simply have different standards and evaluate prints in a different way.
Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on November 03, 2009, 06:56 AM:
I absolutely agree with Fabrizio.
It's a different ball game. 16mm prints have been used differently than Super 8 have.
They are evaluated differently. There are tons of poor dupes out there, but there are also some beautiful originals that do not cost the earth.
Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on November 03, 2009, 08:02 AM:
Thanks you guys. Thanks Fabrizio.
I know more or less all limits of 16mm prints/machines (expecially if I think about what was printed and distributed here in Italy) if compared to top quality 8mm copies and projectors.
I'm anyway considering movies in original language too, in case. I know in USA there are still excellent (and sometimes recent) titles available. But, once more, I really do like to read about your opinions. They're very helpful.
Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on November 03, 2009, 09:01 AM:
Gian, maybe the best thing is having a look at ebay, paul foster, etc. and write down what you're looking in 16mm, considering also the general condition of the copy. Then you may decide if going on in 16mm collecting.
Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on November 03, 2009, 09:32 AM:
Thanks for your suggestion, Fabrizio.
Ciao.
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