8mm Forum: Here Today, Gone Tomorrow

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Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 19, 2013, 12:46 PM:

I went to play a DVD last night. It was part of a film noir box set, that I purchased about 5 years ago. The DVD player refused to play it, just locked up on the main menu and no way to get out of it. This DVD played fine 5 years ago, but now it is totally useless. There is not a mark on the disc, it looks like new. Since all the discs in this set were presumably manufactured at the same time and by the same DVD manufacurer, it is probably just a matter of time before the whole set gets the same non-playable problem.
Which leads to a really scary thought. Just how long are all the thousands of DVD'S in my collection going to last? Are they all going to be useless in another 5, 10, or 20 years?
Goes to show just how fragile and temporary digital media really is.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 19, 2013, 01:07 PM:

I have a copy of "Vertigo", the DVD collectors edition some years ago with the documentaries and everything about restorations and such ...

I won't play now and like yours, there is not a mark or scratch anywhere on the DVD. I won't even play in my DVDROM drive (it's a hybrid DVD) on my brand new PC.

I really wonder (I have no proof for this, mind you) ...

I wonder if the parent company authored the DVD's to be able to play only so many times and then the DVD's would lock up, much like that quickly forgotten type of DVD that was called DIVX (I think actually, the original name was different) that would only allow a certain number of plays ...

They just didn't allow anyone to know that they were limiting the number of plays!

Thank Goodness for film!!!!!!

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on August 19, 2013, 01:33 PM:

Hello Paul.
Working in media the longevity of recordable disc (DVD-R) is questionable despite many reassurances from named brands. I could site many fun and games when we first started supplying video matter of disc some years ago as the early discs were incredibly unreliable as was the equipment. At the sharp end the video businesses who filmed and presented edited programmes to its customers on the requested disc and it was a constantly unravelling nightmare for us all in the early days. Today I can’t remember the last time I had a faulty disc back (time yet) and the software we use to create them is pretty flawless it should be said.

You will probably know that high street DVD’s are created from a glass master or as we call it a ‘client original’ and the process is ongoing from there. I don’t think the first few years for this type of disc will stand out as the highlight of quality production as it was pretty much a case of who could get the discs out first from the lowest cost, but things have improved dramatically particularly with Blu-Ray which is actually still evolving even into 4K ultra HD.

Back to your question. Having been purchased fairly recently I’m guessing your disc could have been produced by a suspect dupe house or you could just be plain unlucky. Sometimes a player can exhibit a fault as being really fussy playing certain discs but play others perfectly we have found over the years. Sadly many manufacturers are now building players down to a price including blu-ray machines so these potentially will not last. Away from work this is still a great attraction for me towards film and the simplicity of a mechanism which often we can see physically as faulty even down to a simple film lube job on an old acetate film in need of a little help. Sadly with DVD/Blu-ray you are in the hands of a disc manufacturer in some far off bongo bongo land (I think we can still say that) and although the majority of discs are produced to high standard some are not which is perhaps not so much about the technology but poor manufacturing techniques and cost cutting in the 21st century.

Taking my work hat off I must confess to still loving the permanence of film which will see us all in our boxes and beyond. I ran a nitrate feature film which was 79 years old recently and it was immaculate with a small number of original cement splices going through my projector flawlessly.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 19, 2013, 01:35 PM:

I wanted to copy a mini-dv videotape I shooted 8 or 9 years ago on a dvd. Surprisingly, the tape is half ereased : you see the picture but with color spots everywhere. I never trusted video tape, it seems I was not completely wrong.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on August 19, 2013, 01:43 PM:

Todays top tip! Always store video tapes on any format wound to the end of the tape as it helps stop the transference of magnetic data particularly with mini DV. I have hundreds of camera masters and could pull any one of those to play it today as a result of this practice.

Is it time to project some more film yet?

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 19, 2013, 02:00 PM:

I think the mini-dv tape was rewound. I haven't checked the other cassettes so I don't know in which state they are. Anyway, I think that it is time to transfer some of them as you never know even if you will be able to find a working camera to watch them as video camera seem to disappear from stores. There is one tape among the others that I value and I may consider transfer it on film (by filming the tv screen). I just hope it is not too late for this one.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 19, 2013, 02:02 PM:

I've not had a problem with commercially produced DVDs yet Lee,
but have with home recorded,namely on an LG Recorder, the
second one, same model,that at times won't replay what it has
just recorded, telling me it doesn't recognise the disc.I think
the problem more than likely lies in the technology.I NEVER
experienced problems by not being able to play a video tape.
As with the annoying picture break up on digital, when we had
std TV transmission,there were no problems.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on August 19, 2013, 02:24 PM:

I currently run two DVD players - one a Blu Ray player. Some discs play in one but not so well in the other and vice versa. I've just come to accept this as the way it is these days.

Just out of interest, Paul, have you tried the disc in another player?

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 19, 2013, 02:40 PM:

I experimented a few times the same problem as Hugh ; at the final step of a recording my dvd recorder gives an error message and it is impossible to read what is on the dvd. With vhs videotapes, I had another problem : several of them would not move when pressing on the play button. However the mecanism was not blocked as it was possible to forward and rewind them.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on August 19, 2013, 03:17 PM:

I first encountered problems with Laserdisc's They were sandwiched together and a reaction I think with the glue and aluminium caused laser rot making lots of coloured snow and then unplayable.

I have to return a couple of dvd that only played part way.

Just think later on when the archaeologists are digging into our past, and the find a few artefacts (that would be digital) 2 dvd'd 2 harddisc's and a couple of films. The film would likely be the only thing they could look at.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 19, 2013, 04:04 PM:

I think the Voyager 1 spacecraft, launched 30 years ago and now totally out there beyond our solar system, has a gold plated laser disc on board, with photos and film clips of life on planet earth, and detailed instructions on how to get here ( turn right at Mars)! I have mixed feelings about whether it is still playable! [Big Grin]

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 19, 2013, 05:11 PM:

It's doubtful if it would be re playable here Paul, no doubt the
brains that sent it off, would not have thought of enclosing the means to replay it.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 19, 2013, 05:34 PM:

I've heard the disc has symbolic instructions on how to play it etched on the surface.

From what I've heard the people at NASA are pretty smart.

They are literally Rocket Scientists.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 19, 2013, 06:34 PM:

No, the point I was making Steve,is it would have been simpler
sending a complete unit that would replay, it's like expecting
the extra terrestrials to have a player, or Betamax video.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 19, 2013, 06:56 PM:

I'd say sending the disc was mostly a symbolic act, and the odds of any player arriving functional in the vast timeframe of interstellar travel are pretty tiny.

The first one just left the solar system a few years ago, but on the scale of the galaxy it's barely left town

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 19, 2013, 07:00 PM:

How very true Steve.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on August 20, 2013, 12:13 AM:

I spent quite a bit of money importing "A Night to Remember" DVD from the Criterion Collection. It played fine at the time, but years later became totally unplayable in any machine. The DVD looked in excellent condition and stored fine.....but became a no go [Frown]

I heard the same thing has happened with this particular title to others.

I saw an add....transfer your valuable VHS home movies to DVD before its to late [Roll Eyes]

....mmmm I remember years ago... transfer your home movies "film that is" to VHS before its to late....and so it goes on....what's next.

In truth all my home movie VHS tapes from the early 1990s are still good...no problems so far.

The only "proven thing" to last is film [Big Grin]

Graham.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 20, 2013, 04:39 AM:

it certainly makes you view Digital in a different light.I was of the understanding that digital recording was forever, stored and treated correctly,or is this another "pig in a poke" from the
marketing men. Graham you're absolutely right, even a faded print is viewable.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 20, 2013, 09:35 AM:

I had exactly the same experience as Graham with A Night To Remember. I now have it on Blu Ray, and only time will tell how long it will last. I checked some other titles in my Film Noir Vol 4 box set, and found that some will play fine and others will not, so apparently the rot is spreading and soon the whole $79.00 set will be useless. I am going to contact Warner Home Video to see what they have tp say about it.
And can soemeone explain why DVD and Blu Ray players dont have a 'skipping' device so you can jump the player out of a bad section of track, like moving the needle on a record player?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 20, 2013, 09:45 AM:

My sister and brother in law told me they'd had all their 8mm films (including their wedding film) transferred to DVD.

I gave them the "save the film" speech and got an awkward silence, and then a box of empty reels.

Gulp!

(-and they actually know somebody with a couple of working movie projectors!)

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 20, 2013, 09:51 AM:

I have also a colleague who had family 8 mm (most shoot in the Congo when it was still belgian) transferd. She told me that the work was not well done. I offered her to show her films with a projector. "I haven't the films anymore". There is no way for me to understand somthing like that.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 20, 2013, 10:00 AM:

A friend had tranfers done of his Super-8 films shot during his tour of duty in Viet Nam to VHS.

He said "It's better"

-since when is a copy ever "better"?

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on August 20, 2013, 10:08 AM:

Grahame, I have A Night to Remember, if you want a copy made.

I remember when CDs first came out, and a few years later there was complaints about the layer peeling. Never had any problems with DVDs myself, and some are about 8 years old. I am hoping all the home movies I shot on a camcorder are OK for the future. I always go for a respected brand, Philips, TDK, etc.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 20, 2013, 12:07 PM:

Now, I have never had a single problem with Laserdiscs playings. All of them, after, (in some cases, 20 years), still play just fine.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 20, 2013, 08:06 PM:

I couldn't comment on that Osi, but I was of the belief, that when a DVD was purchased. like vinyl, or any other recorded media, it
was not of a finite life, by that I mean a limited amount of viewings
or shelf life calculated.If this be the case, I WELCOME PIRATING.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on August 20, 2013, 08:18 PM:

Robert

Thanks for the offer..I bought another one lately locally.

I keep all my original camcorder tapes after transfer and editing, just in case. When DVD came along I went back to those original tapes to get the best transfer and not a "copy of a copy" had I used those tapes for something else.

I came across one I took of the time I worked on aircraft, so made a small you-tube video "Mount Cook Airlines The 748 Days" and posted a link to the facebook page of the airline. So far over 600 views, not bad considering...it gives the chance for the folk to look back at times gone by.

Over the last few years at the cinema before it closed, I once again mostly used VHS tape to record things and some Super8.. that, by the end of this year in this city "film projection" will more than likely cease to exist, replaced fully with digital [Frown]

.."Here Today, Gone Tomorrow" as Paul would say

In saying that I have transferred that stuff to Archival Gold, The 100 Year Disc [Roll Eyes]

...

I once said to young Chris at the time of shooting this last video that he "would" most likely be "The Last Film Projectionist" I was right.

Graham.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on August 20, 2013, 10:58 PM:

By law you are permitted to make a back-up copy for your own personal use and
there are various freeware applications that enable you to copy using a computer and Handbrake is one of many.

I read that the chemistry also fails on home recordable DVD media. One Co. Mam#or*x, has had problems. I'm sure there are other risky labels that fail.
Verbatim media is very good. There is also Gold plated or Medical DVD media that will last. Verbatim also makes gold media.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on August 21, 2013, 04:30 AM:

We were given this USB last weekend....it had seven full features on it. [Eek!]

will this tiny little flash drive be the future??

Graham.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 21, 2013, 05:41 AM:

It's definitly not something you dream to own...

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on August 21, 2013, 06:25 AM:

Verbatim is very good as mentioned, my wife has some of these and they are quite old now. I always make 2 copies of all my digital home movies. I still have most of the clips on my computer.

I agree with Hugh, when we buy these DVDs they are supposed to be forever, just like vinyl or shellac. 20th Century Fox used to advertise there releases as 'Yours to own forever'

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 24, 2013, 04:05 AM:

I've never had a problem with discs regarding a limited viewing
time, how would this be feasible with libraries etc that loan them
out, maybe we're just scaring ourselves.

Posted by Alexander Vandeputte (Member # 1803) on August 24, 2013, 04:42 AM:

When DVD's all of a sudden refuse to play, in most cases this is due to the lens in the optical pick up element that got dirty. Some discs will still play while others refuse to start up.
Clean the lens with a cotton swap and some alcohol and you will be fine in 95% of the cases.

Posted by Brian Stearns (Member # 3792) on August 24, 2013, 05:06 AM:

Have you tried getting a program that rips your dvd to external hard drive. Since you own the film its not pirating. I remember the laserdisc days people complained about laser rot.

I feel sorry for those who transferred there home movies to dvd and they trashed the films.

Posted by Brian Stearns (Member # 3792) on August 24, 2013, 05:15 AM:

Have you tried getting a program that rips your dvd to external hard drive. Since you own the film its not pirating. I remember the laserdisc days people complained about laser rot.

I feel sorry for those who transferred there home movies to dvd and they trashed the films.

Posted by Vidar Olavesen (Member # 3354) on August 24, 2013, 07:40 AM:

I have had DVD's (many HD-DVDs) from US and Canada and often get the same problem. I managed to play mostly all of them after letting hot water running onto them and cleaning them. There's some layer on it, even if it looks absolutely lovely and no scratches, there's residue on it from the pressing (I was told). This has helped a lot. Also try two different brand of DVD players, as also I noticed, some play on this and not the other and vice versa

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on August 24, 2013, 08:41 AM:

Movies on a stick? No thank you, count me out. But this is probably where we are heading to, a place where all movies are on USB memory sticks and are viewed on hand held devices. Will blu ray disc survive? Probably not, it will be the last video format requiring some form of mechanical motion. So buy em while you can.
All this makes the preservation of 'reel' film collections and film equipment all the more worthwhile.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 24, 2013, 09:10 AM:

There's a lot of discussion about cloud computing these days. If taken to the extreme all storage will be out on the Internet and people will no longer have copies of songs or video and everything will be on demand. That kind of brings the idea of "collecting" to the point of extinction!

I like the idea of miniaturisation in principal, but all "movies on a stick" would mean in this household is we'd keep finding movies stuck between the couch cushions!

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on August 24, 2013, 09:33 AM:

We need to find a way of preserving films for the future and stick to it. We had VHS and Betamax, then when you have spent a lot of money building up a collection it is suddenly obsolete, and replaced by DVD; then after spending more money, along comes Blu Ray, now it's a USB stick.

Film has been around for well over a century, and the BFI as well as archives in the US have spent a lot of money trying to stransfer nitrate prints onto safety stock before it's too late; the archivists favourite colour film Kodachrome has been discontinued; Fuji say they will continue to manufacture film for archive purposes only, but for how long.
Eventually, even those safety prints might succumb to VS, and so I say that we need to find a good way of preserving films for the future and keep to it. Sometimes you wonder if these changes are really an improvement or just a way of getting the customer to part with his hard earned money.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on August 24, 2013, 03:56 PM:

Osi,

It's good to know that your LD's are fine and have not had laser rot.

Posted by Vidar Olavesen (Member # 3354) on August 24, 2013, 03:58 PM:

The LD's might start soon. My early PAL discs are starting to rot ... Lots of distortion in the picture :-( But they are probably early 80's, so getting old

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on August 24, 2013, 05:18 PM:

Yes Vadar my laser disc are from the early days of that format that are getting the rot.

Like your piracy Hugh. I rip all my dvd/cd to hard disc for ease of playing, I have even had a problem with one of the discs failing, and once they fail its really hard and can be expensive to get your data back. You can still watch a faded print though

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 24, 2013, 06:54 PM:

Somehow Dave, I have doubts on the releasing companies incripting so many screenings as has been suggested, Alexander
I think is on the right track when he mentioned the lens of the
laser, but I am one that believes in leaving stuff alone when I know nothing about it. Unless when the cover is removed and there are
numerous arrows pointing to the lens, I wouldn't risk damaging
stuff.

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on August 24, 2013, 07:52 PM:

Here today gone tomorrow.

Sound like me pension!

PatD

Posted by Brian Stearns (Member # 3792) on August 24, 2013, 09:51 PM:

When I told people I collect film they say why do you collect that old stuff. Im kinda disappointed today when I went to a kids festival and they were about to show a movie outside with a blownup movie screen and black box with a digital projection. Gone are the days when the mainstream uses film and metal screens.boooo

Posted by Brian Stearns (Member # 3792) on August 24, 2013, 09:52 PM:

When I told people I collect film they say why do you collect that old stuff. Im kinda disappointed today when I went to a kids festival and they were about to show a movie outside. It was funny to see a blownup movie screen and black box with a digital projection. Gone are the days when the mainstream uses film and metal screens.boooo

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 24, 2013, 11:20 PM:

Yes, but show them real films with a real projector and they love it !

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on September 07, 2013, 10:54 PM:

Yet another DVD from my collection locked up half way through the movie tonight, this time from a different box set than the first two that showed the same problem. Once again the disc had no visible flaws. I tried it on a second DVD player and the same thing happened. Washing and polishing had no effect - it just locks up and you can't advance or reverse or get back into the main menu. Another case of disc rot? I'm really starting to wonder just how permanent (or temporary) my DVD collection is. [Frown]

And this of course reveals the Achilles heel in the DVD or BR optical disc. With film you just cut out or repair a damaged section. With the digital disc, the whole thing suddenly becomes unplayable! [Frown]

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on September 08, 2013, 06:51 AM:

Paul, how old are the DVDs, I don't think any of mine are more than about 8 years old. I knew there were problems with the early CDs, but they probably iron that out. I have had a few problems with blank DVDs. You can't beat the old way, FILM.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on September 08, 2013, 05:25 PM:

I wonder how many companies that push folk to transfer there home movies "film that is" to DVD also inform them, that in time those discs could, or can totally fail...then what?... your precious images lost forever.

I bet very few if any of those companies really care for the long term. I can only hope, some will tell there customers to keep there original film in a safe place...just in case.

Graham.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 08, 2013, 05:34 PM:

-but their whole sales pitch is based on the impermanence of film and how people should rush to transfer so their "memories will be safe forever".

We have a friend who's about to get a lot of home movies transferred. I've convinced her to save the film as an archival format.

-of course my reward is I get to be the archivist!

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on September 10, 2013, 12:14 AM:

I guess things are not all "gloom and doom" [Big Grin]

..found a place in town that sells "records" They are making a bit of a come back out here and the folk that own this business are doing pretty good. However they sell heaps of second hand CDs and DVDs as well as records so there is something for everyone.

Its great to rummage through "records" again...some good stuff.

Graham.

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on September 10, 2013, 06:49 AM:

Went past a place yesterday that had plenty of turntables in the window.

Posted by Mike McCord (Member # 3767) on September 10, 2013, 07:18 AM:

Having spent the last 25 years being a "reputer compairman", I have been able to recover data from non-working cd's and dvd's - and you can too!
There are several programs available that will read the "good" parts of the platter and allow for recovery. Often enough, you wind up with the whole cd/dvd data image and all you have to do is burn it to another platter.
One program I have used is http://www.jufsoft.com/badcopy/.
Do a google search and you can find many others...(I am not associated with this or any other product or company.) Try this, you have nothing to lose!

Posted by Yanis Tzortzis (Member # 434) on September 10, 2013, 11:24 AM:

...speaking of USB sticks, bought one last month...512 GB space! And no, haven't stored any movies on it! [Razz]

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on September 10, 2013, 05:28 PM:

Mike, that's a great idea but at some point whatever's causing the error rates to rise will overtake any drive's ability to create a useful "average" of what's readable on the disc. I'm hoping that someone will invent a drive that has laser-modification options (color, timing, intensity) that will be adaptive to decomposing dyes.

Meanwhile, expensive gold-wafer archival discs are probably still the safest bet, best ordered through professional bulk suppliers - if you don't mind spending $250 for a spindle of 100. (I do.)

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