8mm Forum: Future of Film "Dealing".

This is topic Future of Film "Dealing". in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on December 17, 2013, 02:57 PM:

Well, I was going to leave this alone, being Christmas et al, but my conscious is gnawing at me, so here goes...

I really admire and try to support the remaining film conventions, and the various remaining film dealers.

Of course, private selling via the forums and eBay has confronted this "traditional" re-selling of films, with arguments both ways.

Recently, I sold some films at a convention.

I described them, fairly, I thought, as in far from perfect; unsteady picture / scratches, etc.

And at reasonable prices.

I dearly hoped that a collector would see them and buy them as a bargain; they were still "watchable" and, for all intent and purposes, enjoyable.

I watched as a film dealer bought them.

No problem.

But now I see "similar" prints listed with prices of more than 2 and 4 times than paid for my prints, by said dealer.

Still no problem, these may not be my prints.

They are listed as excellent.

Thoughts...?

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 17, 2013, 03:02 PM:

Well, Rob, if they are your prints and are as you described, the dealer is a liar - end of story.
Or....it may be a coincidence ...

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on December 17, 2013, 04:03 PM:

where shall i start with this one without causing any offence to any dealers, it is not intended,
Our friends at Perrys have recently put some great titles on ebay of late and with Alien in mind got a rather good price of around £700 plus.
There are two things here, first, like all companies perrys are in buisness to make a profit so they can either put a list out like they have done for years to the collectors on there system and get maybe 300 for the same title, or two, they can use e-bay and aim for the customers who still dont know that dealers are there,(there obviously too dim to google super 8mm film dealers)& these people seem happy to pay way over the odds so now what we have is decent titles often going onto websites to sell, (if they fetch this kind of money can you blame them) and getting an awful lot of money for just a few titles, as Ian said previously, check it out and bid accordingly, so now after many years of recieving lists in the post or on the website dealers can now list for free and get more for there films. As i said many times before i myself am also guilty of putting titles onto ebay and in most cases have been happy with what i have got for them,
The problem i think with dealers prefering to use ebay and abandoning lists to dedicated collectors is that the hobby may decline faster and dealers themselves may perish sooner, which on the up side means maybe our films will go up in value or collectors will abandon the hobby in favour of the digital projection which will be a whole lot cheaper, though as we all know , not quite the same. I dont know about you all but as much as i love our hobby i'll never pay the kind of monies that these titles now command on the net, at the end of the day its a movie and i cant ever warraant hundruds of pounds for any movie.
you may recall i listed a faded copy of the last command a month or so ago, it fetched £30 ish pounds which i was happy with, however, the courior seemed to take forever to get it ther so during that time i was in touch with the guy who bought it, he was a lovely bloke and we spoke about the hobby a lot, what surprised me was that he was in his early 70s and only ever bought his films on ebay, he did not know that any dealers existed still or about this forum yet he used the internet ,i gave him the details of the
bfcc and all the dealers, he was well happy and even ordered a film from paul foster cheaper than he was going to bid for it on ebay from a private collector. My point here is simply, here is a long term collector who thought that the collectors had all closed, yet was paying over the odds for a few simple common films.
The final thing to remeber is that for some of our well known dealers super 8 is no longer the full time buisness, just a nice little earner. [Wink]

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 17, 2013, 04:46 PM:

My point was not that the dealer in this case is charging 2 or 3 times more than he paid - I see nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

However, if the condition of the prints (assuming they are, in fact, Rob's prints) is "far from perfect, unsteady picture/scratches, etc." as Rob describes, and the dealer is claiming the condition as "excellent", then this is wrong.

But, like I said...it may be a coincidence...

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on December 18, 2013, 04:45 AM:

Tom, I agree with you and just for the record, let me say that there are some splendid film dealers out there and that it would be a sad day indeed to see them go.

I just hope those aren't my prints.

Posted by Paul Browning (Member # 2715) on December 18, 2013, 06:54 AM:

Hi Rob, You could have not sold them to a trader if you thought this sort of activity would go on, after all you are perfectly within your rights to sell them for what price you feel happy with, and who you want to purchase them from you. Why didn't you put them up here first, that would have given you an answer to anyone not buying them from you on the forum if you offered them. I've had a few dealings with traders over the years just like everyone on this forum, and unfortunately they are not all angels from above !!!!, any dealers who lie to me about film conditions will be confronted by me personally or not dealt with again, I say name them and shame them.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on December 18, 2013, 08:16 AM:

Hi Rob. I think the bottom line is going to be once we have sold an item it then becomes the property of its new owner to do with as she or he likes, this then leads us onto getting a reasonable accurate description..we hope! Giving a broad accurate description of a 10 to 30 year old cine film which has probably changed hands 10 times and seen all manner of projectors is becoming harder as peoples expectations vary. On the whole the majority of enthusiasts work together I find and you will only come across a small number of troublesome types shall we say which I choose not deal with. Looking at the upside of this we all thank goodness have a choice and no one forces us to sell stuff.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 18, 2013, 08:38 AM:

There is a slight touch of deja vu here. Earlier this month on the Forum, Sam James posted a similar story about selling and later seeing the item listed at a higher price.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on December 18, 2013, 10:28 AM:

Just to clarify, it isn't the prices that bother me; I knew I could probably get more for them but was happy that they sold and happy with the price; quite rightly they become ownership of someone else and it is nothing to do with me.

Just wondered what others thought about it.

Probably they are not my prints...maybe we should leave it now.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 18, 2013, 01:04 PM:

If a person will pay the 2X or 4X as much price, then who's to complain. The person who sells themselves short only have themselves to blame, and should investigate the "reel" worth of they're print before they part with it, so that they don't suffer from "sticker shock" when they see they're prints resold.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 18, 2013, 01:17 PM:

So, everyone would prefer to miss the point rather than admit that one of our beloved dealers may be misdescribing prints??
[Big Grin]

Comical.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on December 18, 2013, 03:01 PM:

[Big Grin]

thats it Michael, i guess at the end of the day dealers are in buisness to make money regardless and with dealers now choosing e-bay to sell from, the loyalty to collectors of many years is of no concern to them, (if it was ever there in the first place). There are no friends in buisness.
Lets be honest, some of us including me have sold some of our films on e-bay because we get a better price than the dealers will give us, it wasnt that long ago you would be lucky to get a couple of quid for a 400 foot cut down from a dealer, & you had to post your films to them at your expense, i myself( [Embarrassed]

) put one on ebay and got over £50 for it. I guess the dealers,(or some of them) have simply joined the bandwagon. Sad but true, but as some of you do point out, its nice to know that at the moment we can get reasonble to ridiculous money for some cine films. What ebay does do it give you customers who will pay what it takes for them to win your movie, it is often luck of the draw as to who is on there when your film is listed, Star Wars is a great example, a print recently sold on ebay for just £450 yet we all know there are looneys out there who have paid well over £1500.
I for one thought that Super 8 would have died years ago, im pleased to say, i was wrong. [Wink]

Heres a question, if you own a copy of Star Wars already and saw a copy somewhere for £200 how many people of you can seriously say you would not purchase this title and then list it straight onto ebay at the first free listing weekend? I would.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 18, 2013, 04:42 PM:

quote:
Heres a question, if you own a copy of Star Wars already and saw a copy somewhere for £200 how many people of you can seriously say you would not purchase this title and then list it straight onto ebay at the first free listing weekend? I would.

Tom,

I would, of course.
But, I wouldn't describe it as excellent if it was not so.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 19, 2013, 02:31 AM:

Anyone, including dealers, should run the film right through to check its condition and sound before listing it for sale.
I believe there are some who do not do this.

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on December 19, 2013, 02:56 AM:

This thread is perplexing me, it seems as though there are two completely different conversations going on. Rob, in his original post, spoke of the possibility of a dealer having bought a film or films knowing them to be in poor condition and then describing them as being in excellant condition when selling them on. But at least half the replies seem to be talking about dealers buying films cheaply and then selling them at a profit.

This might be a case of - read the posts through properly before replying...

Anyway, that said, Rob, the same thing happened to me; I sold a number of films at the BFCC to a dealer and in amongst them were several that I sold very cheaply on the basis that the colour was gone, in fact the prints were completely pink. I have now seen all the films I sold appear on the dealers list and those that had poor colour are being resold for top dollar with no mention of the lack of colour.

Hopefully he will be happy to do a refund when the dissapointed buyer projects his new film for the first time...

But to pick up the tandem issue that has been raised in this post, I have no objection whatsoever to him selling the films I sold on to him at a profit, after all, that's what business is all about.

Mike [Cool]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 19, 2013, 08:50 AM:

The two conversations are not separate, you could say they are intertwined.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 19, 2013, 12:47 PM:

quote:
This thread is perplexing me, it seems as though there are two completely different conversations going on. Rob, in his original post, spoke of the possibility of a dealer having bought a film or films knowing them to be in poor condition and then describing them as being in excellant condition when selling them on. But at least half the replies seem to be talking about dealers buying films cheaply and then selling them at a profit.

Finally

It seems over the past while there has developed within the hobby a misplaced code of silence about our beloved dealers. It's frowned upon to even suggest that they may be less than saintly.
I'm all for supporting the remaining dealers but when it comes to the business of buying and selling of prints, they are no different to any other buyer and seller. If they are not pulling their weight, so to speak, they should be called on it.

Posted by Ian O'Reilly (Member # 76) on December 19, 2013, 02:02 PM:

Hi all,
Just thought I would add my two pennyworth, Just to put the record straight PERRY’S, when attending the BFCC do not buy films we go there to sell films only.
I agree with Paul Browning and think in fairness that any dealer in question should be named so that they have the right to reply and answer any accusations and explain themselves.
Tom
I see where you are coming from, I sell on e-bay because it’s self regulating i.e when I list a film I start it around a price I think it is worth, once listed it is out of my hands so what it sells for over and above the starting price I am then pleasantly surprised at the finale auction price, I list on e-bay because I have other business commitments that at the moment prevents me from doing a full list and posting either on the forum or by pigeon post.
What I list on e-bay is a fraction of stock that I am holding that will be listed on the forum at a later date. I am in no way deserting my loyal customers which I have great respect and serviced for many years.
Maurice
Nothing would please me more than to sit down all day and watch the films that I have for sale but that would not be cost effective or viable, over the years you get to know your customers who sell you films and if the say they are good I tend to take their word for it.
Should there be a fault with any print I sell the customer knows that I will endeavour to sort the problem out straight away.
Michael
I agree with you, if a dealer is not pulling his weight he should be brought to book, I have seen over the years many dealers who were going to set the Super 8 world on fire only to sparkle for a short time and then fade away.
I hope that puts the record straight.
Have a great Christmas and a Super 8 year.
Ian
[Smile]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on December 19, 2013, 03:46 PM:

Ian. as far I am concerned, and many others I am certain, if every dealer operated in the manner that you serve your customers, then the world of film collecting would be a much better place! Thanks for your fantastic service throughout the year and here's hoping many more to come! Have a great Christmas and a happy and prosperous New Year.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on December 19, 2013, 04:00 PM:

[Wink]

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 20, 2013, 02:43 AM:

Would Ian please let us know his eBay "name".

Posted by Ian O'Reilly (Member # 76) on December 20, 2013, 03:08 AM:

Certainly Maurice my e-bay address is as follows
twocoldnoses

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on December 20, 2013, 03:14 AM:

Make that four as its chilly here as well! [Smile]

Hi Rob. Reading your first post the hardest part is describing the condition of the film particularly as many people who buy via fleabay will hang onto and nick pick your every word. These days if a film was expensive I would rather have a collector round and show the film before they buy it, shred it on a duff projector then ask for a refund leaving me out of pocket. Ian is right that as a business trader there is no way you can sit through every inch of a film even giving a frame by frame account of its condition which one or two collectors out there do expect, but a reasonable description is obviously possible. These days I would love to see more collectors coming to the hobby who actually watch a film to enjoy its content and the artistry than grading but that’s just me I guess.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on December 20, 2013, 10:09 AM:

Barry Attwood, of Independent 8, tells me that he always runs his films, this way he can assess them so as to be able to quote their condition code on his listings.

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on December 20, 2013, 11:39 AM:

On a slightly different slant I think it's great that film and equipment are fetching high and sometimes ridiculous, prices. It proves that demand for a finite resource is apparently increasing and that has to be good for all of us. It also shows that with film and equipment there is still 'life in the old dog yet' and long may it continue.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on December 20, 2013, 12:38 PM:

AHHH ... I see de point!

It's always in the best interest of a ebay seller to properly describe they're print, especially if they are a member of the assorted forums, as word would get around of a bad seller of films.

.... but you have to be careful, even of professional film sellers. One that stands out in my mind is a person who will describe the film condition as "very good", which would make you think that the color is very good, but the seller is actually speaking of the celluloid's "physical" condition, that is, no scratches, splicey ect. It doesn't cover the actual color of the print.

I bought two prints over a years time from this chap, and both prints were far less than "very good" as, in both cases, they were faded. yes, the physical condition of both prints were very good, but with lousy color, it's not worth it. I discontinued buying from that person after that second "sting"
(you'd think I would have learned after the first time).

So, be careful, even with professional sellers ... as it is in your own best interest.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on December 20, 2013, 01:03 PM:

quote:
...the hardest part is describing the condition of the film particularly as many people who buy via fleabay will hang onto and nick pick your every word.

That's true as a very general statement, but has nothing whatsoever to do with what Rob reported in his post. The seller in Rob's case has clearly described the condition as "excellent" which is totally at odds with how Rob has described them. There's no margin for subjectivity or anything else here. "Excellent" is a straightforward description.

Rob's description of:

quote:
I described them, fairly, I thought, as in far from perfect; unsteady picture / scratches, etc.

could not be described as "excellent" now, could it??

Posted by David C. Lucidi (Member # 4020) on December 20, 2013, 04:18 PM:

Osi stated EXACTLY what I was thinking too....how different people classify films when listing.

I won't mention Ebay names but there is one in particular who ALWAYS sells his stuff high, and then you read the description. "Excellent condition", "Rare", "perfect shape, with no lines, no splices, and no vinegar", etc....etc....then at the end, "color pink" or words to that effect.

Maybe it's just me, but I call a pink print a pink print. I don't care if it's a copy of Ben Hur with Charlton Heston's fingerprints on the leader....if it's pink, all other conditions are secondary. I take pride in listing my pink prints upfront, rating it on a 1-10 scale (1 being perfect/no fade, 10 being pinker than the pink panther). [Wink]

It just really bothers me when I scan Ebay, see a title (usually with NO pictures of the print), click on it to start reading all these "used car salesman" trick terms about the 'condition'.....only to find out it's pink.

Sorry, but in my opinion, with RARE exception, most 16mm prints arent so rare that it's worth buying it when it's pink...unless it's gotten for say, $50 or less (sometimes much less).

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on December 22, 2013, 09:49 AM:

The problem, as already mentioned on another thread is that sellers are not using the same guidelines. I bought one feature from an experienced dealer, it was described as Very Good; apart from the numerous splices, there were a couple that clipped the dialogue: this should have been described as Good, not Very Good.

Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on December 23, 2013, 05:40 AM:

Well, this thread has certainly produced quite a bit of interest and varied opinions.

As it is the season of goodwill, I've decided to start a new thread with a more positive spin; "The best film dealer and why"!!!

Happy Christmas! [Smile]

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