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Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 04, 2015, 02:50 PM:
I saw an ad in the London undergroung with that sentence : "So if A FAN cannot go, you can buy THEIR tickets". Could someone explain me why it is not "his (or her) ticket" as "a fan" is supposed (for a Latin mind) to be one person ?
Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on May 04, 2015, 03:09 PM:
Dominic...I found this online:
quote:
You can use the plural pronouns ‘they’, ‘them’, ‘their’ etc., despite the fact that, technically, they are referring back to a singular noun:
[Example]
If your child is thinking about a gap year, they can get good advice from this website.
[Example]
A researcher has to be completely objective in their findings.
Some people object to the use of plural pronouns in this type of situation on the grounds that it’s ungrammatical. In fact, the use of plural pronouns to refer back to a singular subject isn’t new: it represents a revival of a practice dating from the 16th century. It’s increasingly common in current English and is now widely accepted both in speech and in writing.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on May 04, 2015, 03:14 PM:
I think "their" has become more popular the last couple of years because it is personal but gender neutral. It's an alternative to the "he or she" we keep running into.
In English the only third person, singular, gender neutral pronoun we have is "it", and nobody seems to want to be called that!
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 04, 2015, 03:17 PM:
Thank you very much for your quick answer, Janice. For a non English native speaker like me it looks strange and confusing of course but I guess I will have to get used of that kind of sentences if it is current now. I have to say it is the first time I spot a construction like this, so I should read more in English...
Thanks also, Steve. You raised another difficulty for Latin people. It is not easy to know if your talking about a girl or a boy when you hear words like "friend", "neighboor" and so on. In French, almost all the words that qualifies a person has a male and female version, so you know immediately what it is about.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on May 04, 2015, 03:35 PM:
I feel kind of sorry for people who learn English as a second language: it's tough!
Most world languages are a lot more standardized, so they are a lot more predictable in things like grammar, spelling and pronunciation.
English is a blend of several languages and has words and snippets of grammar from the several languages operating at the same time. It had also been spoken for centuries and spread around the world before somebody started to try to nail it down to a standard. Of course by then several different countries were standardizing it at the same time, so you have several different standards.
I have a wonderful Aunt in Germany: sweet lady, very bright too (Chemical Engineer). She'd already learned several languages before she met my Uncle, who teaches English and Math. Even with his help it took her years to become fluent in English, and she gave up at least twice!
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 04, 2015, 03:52 PM:
English is, in my opinion, a false "easy language". Some basics are easier than in other languages like you don't have to remember the gender of the words (two in French, three in German !), once you know a verb you can use it (to see : I see, you see and so on, it's always the same, you just have to ad s for he or she). But if you want to go further basics things, it is difficult, indeed. As Steve reminds, English is used all over the world, so a first difficulty is the accent. The BBC pronounciation is fantastic but in the real live, not so many people talk like that :-). I have some American tv shows on 16 mm from which I understand each word of each sentence but on the other hand the first time I watched "Citizen Kane", I almost didn't understand anything !
Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on May 04, 2015, 03:58 PM:
Try the Yorkshire accent that varies every 10 miles or so.
The first few times I visit USA it was a good ice breaker for chat ups. "Gee I just love your cute accent." Back to her room.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on May 04, 2015, 04:04 PM:
Dialects and accents get us too!
I saw a TV show years ago where they had a speaker talking for about 30 seconds and then the host asked "What language is she speaking?"
(Not a clue!)
She was in fact speaking English!
It's entirely possible if we sat in a room and started writing it out, we'd discover we were actually speaking the same language, but it was that different!
I used to have a friend in East Anglia whose wife commented she didn't find me very "accented". I found out later that the US East Coast was originally very heavily settled by people from that part of England so their accent has a big influence on my accent.
Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on May 05, 2015, 02:26 AM:
quote:
English is, in my opinion, a false "easy" language
Dominque's comment acknowledges the acceptation that English is the easiest language in the world to learn, but the most difficult to speak correctly.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on May 05, 2015, 03:47 AM:
English was never one of my strong points at school ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
....here is a good one from Bonnie Scotland
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Can you understand it?....or you dinnae ken
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on May 05, 2015, 01:55 PM:
Good heavens! I could be referred to as "gender neutral"!
I'm not so sure that I'm comfortable with that, as I'm pretty much "gender positive" ... I know what I am!
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on May 05, 2015, 02:14 PM:
How about:
"English is an easy language to learn to speak badly"
(Any fool can make noise come out of a piano)
"-but it takes a lot of effort to learn to speak it well."
(-but not everyone can play music.)
My Uncle is an absolute hoot! He learned to speak English in Europe, so he does a semi-British accent. On the other hand he moved over here and lived with my extended family for about five years after college.
So basically at will he can go back and forth from Queen's English to Queens, New York!
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 05, 2015, 02:31 PM:
As many native Engish-speakers don't know any other language (and that's another difficulty for us as often they don't realize how difficult it can be to understand a foreign language and they don't try to speak slowlier or with easy words), I would precise that it's not exactly "to speak correctly" that is difficult, but to express (or understand) more developped ideas. The basic is "easy" to learn (that's probably one of the reasons why English became the international language), but, as I said before once you know the basics, it is difficult to improve and progress (if you don't live in an Anglo-saxon country of course).
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on May 05, 2015, 02:36 PM:
Didn't the short wave radio station The Voice of America have news in "Special English" - a version with limited vocabulary for countries where people used English as a second or third language??
Posted by Mathew James (Member # 4581) on May 05, 2015, 02:41 PM:
I think the reason they use 'their' most times is because it is a generic advertisement. In other-words, they do not want to limit to a boy or girl by using he/she, because it cuts ones advertising market in half. This may not pertain exactly to your example dominique, but to many I believe.
If an advert is geared specifically towards girls(like lipstick), it will likely use 'she'. Male adverts 'he'.
Many times a woman is used as personification, like in 'look at that car...she's a beaut..." etc.... but one know by the context that it is personified, because the object is not a person, like in this case, a car.
If you were to advertise to a group, and you did not want to restrict invitation to the audience, you would use 'their' and thus the reader would not try to figure out if it is a 'he' or 'she' selling the ticket, but rather would focus on the object being sold instead. At least that is the intent in Marketing and Advertisements. In your example, they want you to know about the TICKETS you can get from someone who cannot go, whether a girl or boy.
Cheers,
Matt
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on May 05, 2015, 04:22 PM:
here are some facts about our language,
It is one of the most difficult to learn for any foreigner, however, thanks to the lazy and stupid people of today using text talk and abbreviating everything the foreigners who learn it properly actually often speak it better than we do ourselves. i will be extremely controversial here, and absolutely no offence is meant by it, but i have to say a lot of the problem with the English language is due to the Americanisation of it.
The stupid sayings a shortening of words often comes from across the pond but as Britain today seems to want to follow instead of lead simply copies everything. It is often said if you want to see what we are going to be like in five years looks at the USA today.
As i say no offence must be taken here, it is as i say and many people here also say the same.
This country allows its own language to be hi-jacked and changed.
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 05, 2015, 05:32 PM:
Mathew, thank you for your explanation. I understand the intention of the people (advertisers or not) to avoid the his/her problem but, seen from a non-English native speaker, the way to to do it (making a non logical sentence !) looks strange. Of course, the only thing I can do is to accept the language as it is. But when you (not you, Mathew, all English speakers) break rules like that doesn't help us ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on May 05, 2015, 06:18 PM:
You have to love English:
None of these words rhyme:
Tomb
Bomb
Comb
-but they're all spelled the same.
All of these words rhyme:
Hare
Hair
Pear
Heir
-but none of them are spelled alike!
I mean who wouldn't want to figure things like that out!
Perhaps English wouldn't stay "pure" even without "Americans" polluting it!
'enry 'iggins!
(No "offense"...of course!)
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on May 05, 2015, 06:55 PM:
I remember way back in 2008 when I spent the day showing young Chris who was just 15 years old at the time, how to thread the Bauer, the Simplex, and the Kinoton projectors. All day he just smiled at me and said nothing ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
...so I thought that he must be having me on, so when the 6 O'clock sessions came up, I said ok you thread them and I will check...so he did and to my surprise they were perfect.
I still remember looking at him afterwards and all he did was smile at me, but said nothing
Years later, I asked him why he never spoke that day, his reply was that he could "not understand" a word I was saying ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
...my accent was to much..clever kid that he was, he had picked things up very quickly by simply watching.
I am pleased that the years he spent at that cinema was later to lead him to a electrical apprenticeship, that at the age of now 22 he has completed and doing very well... and from time to time we still keep in touch
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 06, 2015, 12:35 AM:
Where was Chris from ?
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on May 06, 2015, 02:30 AM:
Hi Dominique
He was local, a New Zealander. The thing was that even though I have been in NZ for just over 40 years people still tell me I have a Scottish accent, although I don't feel that way myself its what I have been told. I don't think you ever loose it.
Funny thing when I first arrived in this country, it was winter and very cold, so I went to a store and asked if I could buy a "hot water bottle". The girl went away and came back with a "Condom" I looked at this thing and said I need something a "lot bigger" than that ....I always remember the look I got
Regarding Chris, at the time in 2008 I was only really looking for someone to do the evenings so I could go home. Finding someone that's reliable to do part time projection work was almost impossible.
Within around 15 hours training I gave him a set of keys and put him on regular evening work. The first night on his own I was a bit concerned if he could handle it...he did really well, and the next day I arrived to find the projectors cleaned down and a note to say..."a fun but nervous night, thanks for giving me the chance".
I would have to say that in the 12 years of projection work giving that young kid the job was one of the best decision's I have made, although many at the time were opposed to me giving him a job as projectionist so I had that to contend with as well.
The way I look at life Dominique and I told Chris this, is that people had faith in me to give me employment over the many years since I left school at 15 years, so in a way I look at it, was my way to pay some of that back and give someone else that chance before I retire.
Here is a still from the 2008 to 2010 video we put together....a great record of film projecting that's now long gone....
Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on May 06, 2015, 05:32 AM:
To pick up on Tom's point, it's not so much the influence from the U.S. but rather the poor standard of education that so many of our UK schools offer. Overcrowded classrooms, poorly qualified teachers, multi ethnic pupils, all resulting in many young adults leaving school barely able to read and write or do simple arithmetic without the aid of a calculator. Fortunately we still have the best educational facilities in the world, with wonderful institutions - Oxford, Cambridge, Eton, Harrow, Rugby and many other not so famous schools, the list goes on and on. Sadly though not available to all except the lucky or wealthy.
Just my opinion. Have I disturbed a hornets nest?
[ May 06, 2015, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Terry Sills ]
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 06, 2015, 12:05 PM:
Graham, I went only once and for a very short time in Scotland (but I hope to go back as it is beautiful), I don't really remember the local accent but I had a funny moment in a shop. I asked a lady if she had stamps for the postcards I was buying. She answered something like : "It's 10 o'clock".
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on May 06, 2015, 12:36 PM:
Terry this is so true. Unfortunately in this country now some,(many in fact) schools have English as there second language.
How the hell could this have ever been allowed to happen.
Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on May 06, 2015, 12:40 PM:
Dominique - That's brilliant! Of all the UK's accents Scotland has the broadest and some do sound like a different language. I've heard some Scots talking and not understood a word they said. I wonder if other countries accents vary as much as the UK's?
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 06, 2015, 12:48 PM:
Terry, Belgium of course is a Lilliput compared to UK but we have different accents as well. In France, there is a big difference between the North and the South accent. Tom, without starting any political or sensitive debate, what you are describing also happens in Brussels. You sometimes even hear now local Young Belgians talking with a foreign accent !
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on May 06, 2015, 12:51 PM:
My uncle told us he often hears German kids singing Rock songs in perfect English. Then he tries to speak English with them and finds out all they know is lyrics!
Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on May 06, 2015, 02:44 PM:
Does anyone in the UK understand what the scots say?
Im only jokin' don't get all upset
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on May 06, 2015, 02:55 PM:
I would hope the other Scots do!
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on May 06, 2015, 05:38 PM:
Strangely I knew one Scot who was easier to understand the more he had to drink.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on May 06, 2015, 07:40 PM:
Funny thing happened me this morning and just after the school run, when I was approached by a pretty young lady tourist in the car park. believe me "that" does not happen very often.
Anyway she asked first if I was local "I said yes" and could I help her with directions. As soon as I started talking she looked surprised ....are you from Scotland?.....yes...where are you from?...Sweden...so we had a good long chat. I do hope in the end she understood the directions I gave her
Dominique I hope you get a chance to visit Scotland, both Glasgow "people there are friendly" and Stirling Castle are worth a visit.
Guess who my favorite character from the Simpsons is"
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 07, 2015, 08:22 AM:
Graham, I visited Glasgow and Edinburgh.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on May 08, 2015, 05:10 AM:
I watched this short you-tube video called "Scottish accent trapped in Elevator.flv"
Its about two men trapped in a "voice recognition control" elevator and unable to control it because of their Scottish accent
https://youtu.be/BncDeMO-enO
Hope this link works its very funny.
Posted by Tommy Woods (Member # 2437) on May 08, 2015, 06:15 AM:
being a "scouser" from Liverpool I neither speak the Queens english nor the BBC's,indeed I doubt whether the Queen would understand me !
I once read an article many years ago that implied that if an 18th century englishman came back to life,he would understand the americans more than the english,due to the fact thet the anericans use obsolete english words ie sidewalk instead of pavement,trunk instead of boot etc,there are many more
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 08, 2015, 08:00 AM:
Nice one la! R we sorted r kid or wot as a certain famous Burnage not right would say ha ha.
Posted by Tommy Woods (Member # 2437) on May 08, 2015, 08:15 AM:
sorted !!
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on May 08, 2015, 08:25 AM:
Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on May 08, 2015, 12:08 PM:
It amazes me that so many actors from the UK can speak with an American accent so convincingly. Nicolas Hoult comes to mind who was in About A Boy (2002) and had a very strong English accent. Then more recently he was in Warm Bodies (2013) speaking with an American accent. Other actors also have very good American accents like the late Barry Morse who played Lt. Gerard in the 1963 "The Fugitive" TV series...Hugh Laurie who played in the TV series "House"...and Ewan McGregor from Scotland who is a master of several dialects.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on May 08, 2015, 12:18 PM:
As Captain Montgomery Scott himself said:
"Up yer shaft!"
(Worked for him...didn't it?!)
Scottish Elevator Voice Recognition
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on May 08, 2015, 12:23 PM:
Interesting remark Janice. Some people never loose their accent while others impresively get the way the people around them talk. I remember two examples of Morocan students from my school. They both had a strong foreign accent as they came late in Belgium. I saw one of them only a few years after he left the school and he talked like any genuine Belgian citizen but was in the Belgian army ! The second one went to live in Québec (where as everybody knows people speak French as well). Surprise, he came to say hello after two years and he had a Québec French accent !
Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on May 08, 2015, 01:26 PM:
Last May a friend of mine from Scotland came to visit. He has a very strong accent and at first I thought I might need an interpreter to understand him. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I had to listen very carefully and after awhile I could tune in to understand him better. While he was here we did a webcam call to his wife and son. Despite the fact that his son has never been to the US...his accent was much more American than Scottish. He told me the kids at school told him the same thing....Go figure?
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on May 08, 2015, 01:40 PM:
To a large extend it's mass media and easy travel. Hundreds of years ago the average human being rarely got more than 5 miles from the place they were born.
-just the thing to keep accents and languages separated and intact.
A few years ago I got a ride to the airport and less than a day later I was in central Siberia. (-fortunately it was July!)
Had somebody tried this stunt roughly 1615 the odds of the getting there are slim, of ever getting home again almost zero.
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