8mm Forum: Bad sellers

This is topic Bad sellers in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on March 23, 2018, 06:34 PM:

Here is an example of what I would describe as at best sellers that do our community no good whatsoever and at worst confidence tricksters. This particular one was a regular poster on this forum. When I tried to ask a question I got the reply from eBay that the seller was unable to answer. He is not alone. There is another- cinema_paradiso that operates the same way. Disgraceful. And I would recommend that they be avoided at all cost. To me, they have something to hide and I would love to hear their defence of this tactic. Why would any reputable seller not encourage questions?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ELF-9-5mm-Sound-Film-Projector-Optical-Magnetic-sound-POST-FREE/273123106145?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 24, 2018, 02:49 AM:

ive never used this seller but i have seen his or her listings before and some of them show that he either has no idea at all or, as you say Terry, is a con man.

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on March 24, 2018, 03:00 AM:

Tempting as it seems,buyer beware,Mark

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on March 24, 2018, 05:45 AM:

Tom
The shame of it is that he is a very experienced Cine enthusiast, which makes it all the more disappointing that he resorts to this. You will note that there is no mention of exactly what is wrong with the projector other than a missing lens. These 9.5 conversions are very sought after, and being that this seller is a long standing enthusiast on 9.5 film and equipment, it confounds me that he hasn't had the projector restored and then get at least double the asking price. That in itself is a worry as to why it is a non runner.
So yes Mark - buyer beware.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on March 24, 2018, 06:08 AM:

I see, even though this is marked as for spares only and thus no returns, our policy should be No Returns - No Sale!!

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 24, 2018, 06:17 AM:

I didn't realise he was an enthusiast. That makes it worse.
As you say, he does know, so this is an odd way to sell. Unfortunatly, i guess he is just trying to cash in. Sad!

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on March 24, 2018, 06:50 AM:

He definitely would know the faults with it,as stated a film enthusiast for years,Mark

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on March 24, 2018, 08:53 AM:

And yet, this seller has 100% positive feedback on 968 transactions. Has anyone here had any other eBay dealings with this person?

Doug

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 24, 2018, 09:29 AM:

I was looking at his feedback myself Doug. Thats a lot of sales at 100%. This is a very odd ball listing though.it may be rare but not much cop if it doesnt work.

Posted by Gary Sayers (Member # 5545) on March 24, 2018, 09:43 AM:

Am I missing something here? A seller with 100% positive feedback lists a projector and clearly states that isn't working (for repair or spares). What's so bad about that?

Same goes for the other seller mentioned in the original post - 100% positive feedback. Is there some other reason for the bad feeling towards these sellers that we don't know about?

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on March 24, 2018, 11:23 AM:

Gary
I think the issue here is a question was asked through eBay and an answer couldn't be given yet this seller is knowledgeable in such things,Yes it's spares or repairs but worth more repaired but what you would need to know before bidding (as no returns) is what is needed for it to work,it could be a bare shell,Mark

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 24, 2018, 11:53 AM:

It shows how little I know, I didn't even know that 9.5 was capable of both optical and magnetic sound. I thought these were during the days of just optical sound.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 24, 2018, 12:26 PM:

Whats wrong with it?
400 quid for somthing that doesnt work!
No lens? It must have had one.
Thats only me though. Good luck to the seller. Ive seeen some cracking projectors selling for a lot less.

Posted by Gary Sayers (Member # 5545) on March 24, 2018, 12:57 PM:

I didn't ask what was wrong with it. It's very clear from the listing that it's £399 for a projector that doesn't work.

I asked what was so bad about the listing that prompts a posting about 'at best sellers that do our community no good whatsoever and at worst confidence tricksters'?

Mark - Of course it could be just a bare shell or whatever but based on the 100% positive feedback, why would the seller want to ruin that? Plus, saying no returns is not unusual for something stated as for spares/repairs, particularly for auction.

If they don't answer questions, there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation. I don't know how ebay messaging works in full but I have had experience of it not working properly a few times over the years. The seller may be totally oblivious of any message for all we know.

Also, ebay allows buyers to file a 'not as described' claim if not happy, regardless of any no returns rider by the seller.

I'm not taking any sides, it just seems to like this seller (and the other one mentioned) has already been judged as a con-merchant when their feedback would suggest otherwise.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 24, 2018, 01:12 PM:

Im certainly not judging the guy as a bad seller. I know you didn't ask what was wrong with it, but i am telling you what i think is wrong with it all the same,
My point is, how can anyone who is in the cine collecting fraternity who obviously knows the hobby ask 400 quid for something that is basically scrap value. I agree the listing is very clear etc. It would be like me listing a film thats too badly damaged to project for the price of a new one. Ive not said anything about the other seller. In fact ive bought from the other seller twice with no problem. [Wink]

[ March 24, 2018, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Tom Photiou ]

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on March 24, 2018, 04:12 PM:

why don't you have a ride over and view it he only lives about 25 miles from me

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 24, 2018, 04:17 PM:

I reckon if the guy started a bid at 99 it would go up to what it is worth and probably beyond, to start off at 400 all but a quid for something thats advertised as spares or repair seems a bit nuts to me. [Wink]

Unless of course i am completely wrong, if i am please correct me, what is a scrap projector worth?

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on March 24, 2018, 04:26 PM:

Tom,
How much is a scrap projector worth? However much fuel it takes to take it to the tip!!! Mark

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on March 24, 2018, 04:27 PM:

Tom

About the same as a faded print of Star Wars [Big Grin]

....sorry couldn't help myself [Big Grin]

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on March 24, 2018, 04:37 PM:

Both should go to the tip!!! Mark

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on March 24, 2018, 04:48 PM:

Any reason why so many who know him are not saying the seller's actual name on here?

Perhaps the main gripe is knowing he is a repairer of such 9.5mm machines himself reading between the lines this one must be beyond economical repair or he simply wants to cut his losses and not fork out for a pro repairer to get it going for him.

Either way he seems eager to make 'his' problem machine 'your' problem machine so probably best avoided.

Our favourite repairer did mention to me once that these 9.5 conversions were not all done to the same high standard and it can be a case of good luck or otherwise if you get a good one or not - accurate re-cutting and smoothing of the frame, and the perfect realignment of sprockets and guides was not achieved on all of them - could this be one of those that didn't make the grade?

Only 'Mr 'X' will be able to shed light on it........

Kevin

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on March 24, 2018, 06:06 PM:

I always though his name was my m

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 25, 2018, 12:43 AM:

If this thing is posted in our "Ebay Oddities" sticky post, I can understand the purpose of writing it.

But since the subject of this post is "Bad Sellers", I was expecting to read a report about bad deals with a particular seller(s).

But apparently it is not...more like (again) complaining someone selling at certain price for a stuff that we, as the cine enthusiats, think is a rubbish.

But since the seller has clearly stated the item's condition, isn't that his/her right to put whatever the price he/she wants?

The "Ebay Oddities" thread is provided for us to give a big laugh for such listing...but labelling someone in an individual post like this as "bad sellers" for his/her wanted price is somekind a strange thing for me.

cheers,

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 25, 2018, 02:17 AM:

Winbert, if I understand well, the thread is about "bad sellers" in general and this case is an example. What Terry seems to regret is not the description or the price but the fact that the seller doesn't want to answer questions. I would think that it is not post in the "EBay Oddities" since the seller is said to be a member of this forum and it would be interesting to hear why a seller doesn't want to answer questions about his sale. If I'm wrong, thanks for correcting me.

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on March 25, 2018, 03:00 AM:

Dominique,
I think your reply again explains what Terry was referring to ref the seller,Mark

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 25, 2018, 03:39 AM:

Dom, I have read Terry's post and for me it is more appropriate to be titled as "unresponsive sellers" or "careless sellers" rather than "bad sellers".

Although I am not a native English speaker but "bad sellers" is equal to other daily words such as "bad boys", "bad buyers", bad this or bad that, which simply means just bad.

But not responding a question (or temporary not reaponding for certain reeasons such as away for holidays) is something legal according to the Ebay's rules that is why Ebay provides such feature and seller can set that "on" if he/she want to.

So if this particular seller uses what Ebay has allowed, why we need to label him/her as a "bad seller"?

As Garry's post above, I am not taking anyone side here, but if the seller has followed Ebay's rules, that is totally fine for me. For what the price he/she has set up, it is totally his/her prerogrative. And if we want to give a big laugh for his/her price, then that what our "Ebay Oddities" sticky post is for.

cheers,

Posted by Allan Broadfield (Member # 2298) on March 25, 2018, 03:41 AM:

9.5mm magnetic sound was available for home movie making enthusiasts, the Pathe Marignan was an example.
The Elf conversions are sought after and sell at a premium due to the comparative rarity of reliable working 9.5mm machines, but even from a proved good seller a machine that needs goodness knows what work done on it and minus a lens seems a bit of a chance to take especially at such a high starting bid.
However, if you have the knowledge, skill (and a spare lens), you could resell for a good profit as these can sell for over a thousand in any denomination in working order.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 25, 2018, 04:43 AM:

no ones complaining Winbert, (you use that word a lot), Terry is just making a point, rightly or wrongly.
As you say, people can list what they want as a start price, BUT, if this seller is a well known collector and in the know, then that person should know a bit better than to start a price at 400 when the item is incomplete and only suitable for spares.
So if i put up a listing tonight of twenty 400ft films, all sold as seen, no returns and all untested with a price of £100 each i wouldn't expect anyone to come on here and make a point?

No ones complaining mate, just making a thread, for those who dont like the thread dont bother commenting as i believe its YOU who are complaining about the post.

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on March 25, 2018, 04:56 AM:

No complaining Winbert but a thread and reasons given for concern on an unknown condition of an expensive and sort after machine to which a question on eBay should be answered,if not alarm bells ring,Mark

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 25, 2018, 05:01 AM:

quote:
Terry is just making a point,

...and I have explained what Terry has pointed out is not wrong per Ebay rules...so it is not entitled to be awarded as bad sellers.

quote:
YOU who are complaining about the post.

Yes...I am the one who is complaining when another member started making a comment on someone's else price (not on what Terry's original post was)....BECAUSE we have a dedicated thread for that. Use that thread (sticky post) please.

I don't want to see this forum is flooded by similar posts everytime a silly price listing appears on Ebay. Just use that sticky post that has been provided by the moderators...and as I said earlier...I won't be bothered.

cheers,

Posted by Rob Koeling (Member # 35) on March 25, 2018, 08:47 AM:

Winbert, the main complaint is not the high starting price. But the fact that there is good reason to believe that this seller knows what is wrong with this machine and not only he doesn't disclose it, he also seems to refuse to answer questions about it. You must agree that this is at least suspicious.

Of course everybody wil have their own definition of what a bad seller is. Not disclosing information (that is, information that makes it clear that it is either an expensive doorstop, or only usable for parts (which parts?)) that is essential for the potential buyer is, to my mind, unacceptable. For me this is a very good example of a 'bad seller'. And if any of the assumptions is wrong, it would be great if the seller would add his two pennies in this thread. Until then, time for 'bad seller' alert! Posts about silly people who start their auctions at unrealistic prices can still be posted in the 'Ebay Oddities' thread. This is more serious.

- Rob

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on March 25, 2018, 09:30 AM:

Thanks Rob for your reply,let's see if it is enough information to keep certain members happy,I do hope so,Mark

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 25, 2018, 10:32 AM:

Thank you Rob, agree 100% [Wink]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 25, 2018, 11:43 AM:

quote:
he doesn't disclose it

Rob, this is what I don't understand...and below is the screen shot from this particular listing.

For me it is enough to understand that the projector is not working and good for parts only.

quote:
he also seems to refuse to answer questions about it.

As I said earlier, Ebay allows this. If we google there are so many complains from Ebay's members to why this feature is provided.

However from my point of view, if a seller has followed what stated in Ebay rules, that is not entitled to be said as "Bad Sellers".

The first you need to do is asking this to Ebay or the simplest one stop using Ebay.

Please remember this is an open forum that non-members can also read without need to register. If we allow such things, it wouldn't be fair for the seller since he/she has actually followed the Ebay rules.

I agree if we use this forum to
alert other members of a suspicious listing but not being a judge to say who is good or bad seller, except if the transaction has been done and it has proven the seller is bad.

Many forums have a sticky post regarding bad sellers for such thing and I urge (and some members have also written here) this forum to have such sticky post.

cheers,

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 25, 2018, 12:00 PM:

The kind of questions that come in mind : Why would you need a lens for if the projector is not working ? What sense does it make to have put a new lamp if it's sold only for parts ? Which parts are damaged (and so cannot be used on another projector) ?

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 25, 2018, 12:35 PM:

The fact is, a good ebay seller does answer questions, if they are away or anything they usually state this. Terry asked a question and eBays return answer was that the seller cannot answer the question. No one is questioning whether he has broken any ebay rules, i think everyone on here is fully aware of that,
Lets also see the bottom of his statement here,

"Thank you all for your questions which I have done my best to answer. With these selling upwards of £1,000 its worth spending on it most certainly".

Well, he certainly didn't want to answer Terry, and if it's worth a grand after being fixed why doesn't the seller, who we know is an enthusiast, fix himself and sell it for a grand?

Sorry you still dont see the point here Winbert, and before you send another Smart alec answer on here and continue to make yourself the talk of the town, read the thread through from the start and try and see what people are saying.

We know he hasn't broken ebay rules,
We know he is an enthusiast, in which case why start at such a ridiculous price for a scrap machine. Whats the point of putting a lamp in when it has no lens?
Why not just simply answer questions sent to him on ebay?
No one is denying his excellent feedback, but i am sure his good name will be blackened, (tarnished,whatever phrase is PC),
Also as Mark said,

"He definitely would know the faults with it,as stated a film enthusiast for years"

So what's he hiding?
[Wink]

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on March 25, 2018, 01:01 PM:

From reading the description it appears the seller is doing a friend a favor by listing the projector using the seller's own account, possibly listing it for a price that the owner has requested. Since the projector belongs to someone else, there is also the chance that the seller does not want to take the machine completely apart to examine it, or the seller is not as proficient in the repair of these projectors as you say this person is. Just because someone is a cine enthusiast doesn't mean they can fix every thing that has sprockets.

What I do see, which to me invalidates calling this person a "Bad Seller", is the offer "if you do want to come and view it you would be most welcome and I can arrange it for you given a few days notice." That is the meaning of "nothing to hide."

Doug

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on March 25, 2018, 01:37 PM:

Doug
That has been added about come round etc so at least gives someone the option to do this,the original description though was a concern by not answering questions,wonder if Terry got his question answered,Mark

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on March 25, 2018, 01:42 PM:

I guess so Doug, but, for arguments sake, i live about 4/5 hours away, unless you live within a reasonable distance i cant see anyone wanting to travel hundreds of miles just to take a look.
I think more than anything, its the fact that Terry asked a question and the ebay reply was not a good one, that, to me, is avoiding, in my opinion, (not necessarily the right one), this price is way above scrap or spares value. If the guy selling was not in the know of our hobby you could semi-forgive them for trying to make a fast buck, but for someone who (allegedly) does know the hobby well, then in my opinion it is not a good listing at this price. It is aimed at a buyer who knows nothing about it from a seller who does.
Arthur Daley springs to mind here. [Wink]

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on March 25, 2018, 01:48 PM:

Ask her indoors!!! Mark

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on March 25, 2018, 02:26 PM:

If he is a member here why not PM him and ask about the projector? It would be interesting to see if he responds to a PM.

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on March 25, 2018, 03:48 PM:

Doug
This man is a regular seller of 9.5 film and equipment at film fairs and has many years experience with such. He knows his way around this guage better than you or me. So to me there is no defence of this tactic. He has recently listed with the appendage ' this will not be relisted' . Guess what - a few days later - relisted!
To my mind this, together with the recent action of refusal to answer questions, is not the action of an honourable seller. Don't ask me how he has accumulated such a high 100% score. I don't care. the point is an honest seller would not take these measures. If you were not available to answer questions, why would you bother to list, until you were. Or at least give an explanation of why not.
In answer to an earlier remark, I have not received an answer, simply because I have been denied the opportunity to ask.
Anyone interested in bidding for this projector would be perfectly entitled to ask pertinent questions as to the actual problems that they would be taking on and as Dom rightly comments, why would you replace a lamp on a non runner with no lens?
I think Tom has it right - Arthur Daley reincarnate. But this is only my opinion and as my wife often tells me ' you're not often right - but you're wrong again!'
I hope so. I don't like to see our respected members and our beloved hobby descend into these practices, but it does need to be highlighted.

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on March 25, 2018, 03:52 PM:

Terry,
That sums it up perfectly,Mark

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on March 25, 2018, 05:03 PM:

I don't usually like wasting time looking into the minute detail of Ebay seller activity but in this case it may help some decide how they feel about this item - it appears Mr 'X' sold it last month on Ebay, a completed sale with one bid, not just an ended item.

The details of the original sale are interesting as he clearly stated then it has motor and amplifier problems:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ELF-9-5mm-Sound-Film-Projector-Otical-Magnetic-sound-POST-FREE/273075802657?hash=item3f94961221:g:QokAAOSwZfNaesy9

He seems to think his latest more creatively worded version will help him sell it this time - no Ebay rules broken but a cloak and dagger approach that has made many on here wary.

Kevin

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on March 25, 2018, 05:53 PM:

Kevin
Thank you.
I rest my case - but I take no pleasure in it. It does nothing to help the promotion of our hobby, but at least I can tell the wife she was wrong this time [Smile]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 25, 2018, 06:27 PM:

Now, let us discuss more important issue, especially for majority of us who don't know who keyboardtapper23 is.

Why his real name is always hidden in this discussion?

As Terry says, he is in this forum, this means someday she/he can sell something here. When (some of) you agreed to label him as "bad seller", please disclose his name, so other members will avoid buying from him.

This might be a better move for greater things, since not each member is on Ebay. So to Terry or other members who know his/her real name...will you be liberate doing that for us please?

[ March 26, 2018, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Douglas Meltzer ]

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on March 25, 2018, 08:09 PM:

Yeah this whole thread seems useless without a name...so who is the con man known as Mr X?

Posted by Mathew James (Member # 4581) on March 26, 2018, 07:23 AM:

This member has amazing ebay feedback. VERY difficult to keep 100% feedback.
Why not give him another chance, or try getting him on this thread for an answer.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 26, 2018, 08:02 AM:

That is exactly my point Matthew. It is hard to believe a seller with 100% positive feedback (and 5 stars for all aspects) is labelled as bad sellers.

But he/she may have a bad record in this forum. By revealing his/her name will help other members to avoid him/her, rather than gossiping.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on March 26, 2018, 08:28 AM:

I think what people are reacting too is the money vibe thats so heavily in cine these days and can tilt listings over somewhat if you will. This one has that feel.

As Kevin Brown does do elfs he may be prepared to have a go at it and might be a worthwhile investment for the owner.

I think Mr M is a decent chap but it might be worth reinserting the things mentioned in the 1st listing to be fair etc.

Best Mark.

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on March 26, 2018, 08:52 AM:

X, M and keyboardtapper23......who is this mystery person? Why is he not being named? [Confused]

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on March 26, 2018, 09:24 AM:

If you look at his feedback you will find about half of it is as a buyer, CDs, DVDs, which probably had a BIN price. If it sells, he should get a positive feedback. The complaint isn't the description, but rather that he wouldn't state what the problem was. There must be a facility on Ebay where you can block questions; similar to the one on Youtube, where you can disable comments.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on March 26, 2018, 09:59 AM:

I have deleted a few posts here that amount to a running squabble between two long time members. Please let's try to avoid this in the future....there is no need to pursue that line in this thread any further.

Posted by Mike Newell (Member # 23) on March 26, 2018, 05:34 PM:

What end to you open your egg at ? Tell me that!😡😡😡

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