Re-recording sound on features

[Oliver Feld]

Philip, I plug the cable directly into the projector.
I put the machine in front of my TV set and a paper „as a screen“ before it. Then I adjust the right speed by starting the film and the BluRay until they go in sync.
I always start the recording on Super-8-reel 2, to assure that the main title music on reel 1 later is not to be adjusted. You would hear the differences.
If You start the recording You have the absolute control because You see film-and-BluRay on the same time running in Sync or not.

[Stuart Hilliker]

The reason for three outputs is to feed the left & right audio to the GS whilst allowing the pulse signal to have its own output. In order to connect this to the GS, I made a cable that has an ESS plug (5 pin din) to a 1/4inch jack. I believe the pin arrangement for this is explained on the old forum archive.

As my Pro Tools is part of a studio, the set up is far more complicated than it needs to be for the GS re-records.

I would think that one of the Focusrite audio interfaces would work brilliantly for this.
Output 1 to GS input Left
Output 2 to GS input Right
Output 3 to ESS (possibly via a small mixer or similar to increase gain). Do not connect this output to a speaker!

[Philip Hamilton]

Stuart - thanks! So hardware - wise what you do have between your computer and projector? And, you said "Any software that can support video playback and an audio interface with a minimum of three output channels should work just as well." I have Sony Vegas and can have multiple tracks but I don't know if that is what you mean by 'channels'.

What is the process or connection to get the 'pulse' to the projector? This is the part that is not clear to me. You mention 'my interface' - any details on that would be appreciated. thanks again

[Stuart Hilliker]

Hi Philip,

In answer to your questions:

Pro Tools is the standard software for Film & TV post as well as being widely used for music recording and mixing. No problem running picture.

The 24Hz pulse is created using the signal generator in Pro Tools. I create a 60 minute file and trim to required length. I can send you a 24 & 25 Hz pulse if that’s useful.

The pink noise is again created using the signal generator. The advantage of this is that it is a broad frequency signal and easy to set and compare levels. Definitely not essential.

In theory the pulse level could be set within Pro Tools. With my interface I was unable to achieve enough level. It really does need high volume!

[Philip Hamilton]

I re-record my features directly with my BEAULIEU 708 or ELMO GS 800.
Thanks to the speed adjustment from 16-25 frames a second You can re-record any film perfectly while it runs and You can balance the little differences between a DVD/BluRay (some frames can be missing at reel changes or the DVD/BluRay misses some seconds here and there) without stopping the projection.
The BEAULIEU is much more precisely and the results are breathtaking: the Stereo Sound is clear and booming.

Oliver - what is your setup ? What do you plug into your Projector? Do you edit the movie soundtrack first to match the film? Do you plug your PC or Bluray player directly into the projector? Would appreciate an explanation of your work flow on this. Thanks!

[Oliver Feld]

I re-record my features directly with my BEAULIEU 708 or ELMO GS 800.
Thanks to the speed adjustment from 16-25 frames a second You can re-record any film perfectly while it runs and You can balance the little differences between a DVD/BluRay (some frames can be missing at reel changes or the DVD/BluRay misses some seconds here and there) without stopping the projection.
The BEAULIEU is much more precisely and the results are breathtaking: the Stereo Sound is clear and booming.

[Philip Hamilton]

[QUOTE=Stuart Hilliker;n42899]I am using Pro Tools to re-record my prints. Any software that can support video playback and an audio interface with a minimum of three output channels should work just as well.

My workflow is:

1. Video the print whilst projector is locked to 24fps. Ensure that a recognisable “Start Mark”/frame is recorded.
2. Record audio from DVD or Bluray….or even YouTube if it’s a particularly obscure trailer!
3. Use rough telecine of print to confirm sync of Bluray audio in Pro Tools. Using the guide audio from the video, it’s very straightforward to confirm sync and check for any missing frames. This also allows for 24-25-23.98 fps conversions.
4. Add a 24Hz or 25Hz pulse to the session and route out of separate output. This should start two frames before the “Start Mark”.
5. Record pink noise from ProTools to GS. I set levels to meter at 0. I then replay this to check stripe response. If it replays lower then increase level by that amount.
6. Check that pulse level is sufficient to start GS and maintain constant speed. I have found that this often requires a small mixer to boost levels.
7. Position print on start mark. Ensure ProTools session is ready to play with two frame advance on pulse track.
8. Put GS into ESS mode. Press record key.
9. Press play on Pro Tools. When pulse begins, projector should run and you can monitor rough telecine against film print to ensure perfect sync throughout transfer.

Stuart - thanks for the step by step - very helpful. I have some questions though please if you could help...

1) ProTools is a Music editing software is it not? does it have the capability to load the rough video of your movie into the timeline so that you can sync it to your audio track? I know how to do this in Vegas but am not familiar with Protools.
2)If you had a 24hz pulse (which I think is 24 fps to the season - is this added in a separate track - where do you get this?
3) What do you mean by recording Pink noise - is that just a test to see the level is correct?
4) I am a little confused about the 'mixer' needed to boost the 'pulse'. Couldn't this be boosted within Protools?

I appreciate any and all clarification on this. I am not familiar with music editing tools so some of the terms are unfamiliar to me. Thanks.

[Chip Gelmini]

This seems too hard for me if there was someone who could make a video showing us the steps rather than just by reading the instructions. I am quite confused.

[Philip Hamilton]

I would love to learn how to do this properly. Is the GS1200 the only option for a projector? Do you really need an intermediate pedro box to make this work? Seems like I read that it wasn't totally necessary.

I use Sony Vegas as a film editor on my Windows PC. It works great. I can easily create a soundtrack at 24fps or 23.98fps. Not sure it has the proper audio out to send a pulse to the ESS input on the projector though (is that what the Pedro box does). What software to some of you use?

Thanks in advance for you responses I appreciate any information. As an aside is there anyone who would be willing to record a soundtrack onto a film if I supply the film and the new soundtrack? Thanks!!

[Burton Sundquist]

Booming sound from the GS once Attempting re-record; Dissconect the speakers by removing rear cover and use the monitor out jacks..

[Stuart Hilliker]

I am using Pro Tools to re-record my prints. Any software that can support video playback and an audio interface with a minimum of three output channels should work just as well.

My workflow is:

1. Video the print whilst projector is locked to 24fps. Ensure that a recognisable “Start Mark”/frame is recorded.
2. Record audio from DVD or Bluray….or even YouTube if it’s a particularly obscure trailer!
3. Use rough telecine of print to confirm sync of Bluray audio in Pro Tools. Using the guide audio from the video, it’s very straightforward to confirm sync and check for any missing frames. This also allows for 24-25-23.98 fps conversions.
4. Add a 24Hz or 25Hz pulse to the session and route out of separate output. This should start two frames before the “Start Mark”.
5. Record pink noise from ProTools to GS. I set levels to meter at 0. I then replay this to check stripe response. If it replays lower then increase level by that amount.
6. Check that pulse level is sufficient to start GS and maintain constant speed. I have found that this often requires a small mixer to boost levels.
7. Position print on start mark. Ensure ProTools session is ready to play with two frame advance on pulse track.
8. Put GS into ESS mode. Press record key.
9. Press play on Pro Tools. When pulse begins, projector should run and you can monitor rough telecine against film print to ensure perfect sync throughout transfer.

I tend to plug headphones into the GS as the huge level increases that can happen when recording ends can be rather alarming!




The biggest problem I have come across is that once you have watched the print whilst making the rough telecine, then watched it again to confirm sync with high quality audio, once again to record it and finally to check recording, the last thing you want to do is watch the film again!

There really is something quite magical when everything works.

https://we.tl/t-Tk0n30NTV2

[Brian Fretwell]

Yes, you don't want the sound to be as you hear in Zoom calls! Out of sync intermittently and stretched in places trying to regain sync!!!!

[Lee McCaffrey]

Yes but you could have the finest stripes with the best response but if the sound's all over the place it's not going to be an enjoyable experience. I was just wondering how Lee keeps decent sync without a GS1200 and it's crystal lock

[Burton Sundquist]

Lee is right, sync isn't the only concern. You must test the quality of both stripes of your print before considering a stereo re-mix. If deemed suitable for re-recording the mixer can help here to add bass or treble and eliminate hum. Audio straight from DVD to GS will work too. learn the spot record feature of this projector. The key to mastering a good re-record without the aid of software...

[Lee Mannering]

A few decades ago when I nearly secured the DCR archive Dave offered me his reel to reel dubbing system to go with it from his legendary garden shed. Prior to this approaching 50 years ago I got into dubbing which was reported in Film Making Magazine. Feeling old now!
Cresta Electronics supplied systems in the UK from Cassette to reel to reel but I plumped for a Revox 77 which mad Dad was a fan of. Very long long story and up hill..

Dubbing S8 is a wide subject and not just about synchronisation of sound.

My take has always been about a good master and excellent magnetic stripe to record onto. Some are much better than others.

Enjoy mag striping my own films for one off efforts and the quality of Agfa F5 stripe was and is a thing of legend.