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Topic: GS 800 Scratching film...HELP!!!!

Adam Deierling
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 717
From: OH
Registered: Nov 2010

posted January 01, 2012 11:16 AM

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I was screening a movie last night on my GS800 and it played fine, no scratches. Then This morning I ran the same film again and noticed a very fine scratch to the right side of the image. It was not there the last time! I stopped the film and examined the film itself only to see that the film was scratched before entering the projector leading me to believe it was scratched last night after exiting the gate. My question is this...What could be causing a scratch after the gate? Has anyone had issues before? I'm very nervous to run any films now. I always clean the projector before a screening and use a can of air duster to clean out any dust in the film track. Any help would be appreciated! THANKS!

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Jean-Christophe Deblock
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 693
From: Grimbergen, Brabant, Belgium.
Registered: Mar 2007

posted January 01, 2012 11:30 AM

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Hy Adam,

Perhaps it's the pressure of the soundhead. The better way to correct this is to replace them by using others from a bulk projector.

Let us know if this help you.

best regards,

JC.

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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1535
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008

posted January 01, 2012 02:56 PM

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Hello Adam here is a quote from the first line of a piece by Graham Ritchie

"Although the Elmo GS-1200 is an excellent projector, it is not without its problems. lately, i had noticed scratches on the right side of the picture."

based on his description I think this might be a GS issue and not simply a 1200 one...The culprit in his was the initial top sprocket and the centre guide, but especially the bottom guide which was worn...The details are in issue 21 (Fall 2007) of The Reel Image. If you don't have the issue I can scan it and post.

--------------------
"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"

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Joe Taffis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1592
From: United States
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 01, 2012 04:37 PM

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Adam, I hope you're not just relying on the air duster to clean your gate. You may need to get in there with a small brush and/or cotton swab dipped in alcohol, not always, but sometimes it is necessary. Good luck finding your problem.

--------------------
Joe Taffis

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Graham Sinden
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1131
From: Kent, UK
Registered: Aug 2005

posted January 01, 2012 06:11 PM

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Adam judging by your description my guess is it the black plastic tensioner just before the bottom sprocket. This is used on the GS800 and GS1200 and always wears at some stage because its plastic. You will notice 'flats' on the edges which will touch the picture area eventually getting worse with more use.

This is quite easy to cure and should be easy to to remove (tried it on the GS1200), be careful not to lose that spring or screw, and then can be reshaped so that nothing touches the picture area and should last a while before it needs reshaping again.

Is the scratch on the 'base' side or 'emulsion' side??

Graham S

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Adam Deierling
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 717
From: OH
Registered: Nov 2010

posted January 02, 2012 12:12 AM

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Joe, Thanks for your concern. Actually I do use your method as well. The air duster is just to remove any loose debris in the track.

Graham, how do i tell which side of the film is scratched? I did notice the part you are referring to is a bit dirty. I cleaned off some gunk that had been built up. Other then that it seems OK.

Dino, I would greatly appreciate getting a copy of this article. If it is not too much trouble. You can email me at onedelorean@yahoo.com.

Thanks guys for your responses!

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Graham Sinden
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1131
From: Kent, UK
Registered: Aug 2005

posted January 02, 2012 03:41 PM

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Adam,

The 'Base' side is the shiny side with mag track added
The 'Emulsion' is the dull side.

If the scratch is on the shiny side (base) then the scratch could be caused by many places. Remember the shiny side goes towards the projector lamp so therefore is on the bottom side of the head area and wraps around and touches the black plastic tensioner. This black tensioner is very common for scratches so check carefully for any flats on the two sides of it, id be surprised if there wasnt even a small flat there.

If the scratch is on the dull side then it best to look at the head pressure pads as these will wear with time and the pressure pads furthest away from you, near the main stripe, could be the culprits. But it could also be a piece of dirt or loose film trapped somewhere.

Also check the bottom sprocket green guide.

Once you have determined what side of the film is scratched then you can eliminate parts.

You can also try to load some brand new film in and stop the projector. Then carefully mark the film at various points with a pen and then remove the film without running the projector anymore. Look for where the scratch begins and note what area of the film path is affected.

Hope this helps.

Graham S

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Adam Deierling
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 717
From: OH
Registered: Nov 2010

posted January 02, 2012 06:13 PM

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Scratch is on the base side with magnetic track. What would these "Flats" look like on the tensioner? I see small groves that are the width of the film. As if a place for the film to travel past. I also see a couple other places that could potentially be a scratch culprit with bits of gunk build up. One spot that lays just after the sound head on the metal track just before the rubber wheel and one on the lower plastic green track under the sprocket gear. If the plastic has a small notch, how would I correct it and smooth it back out?

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Graham Sinden
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1131
From: Kent, UK
Registered: Aug 2005

posted January 02, 2012 06:47 PM

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There is a good photo and other info on the other 'site'. If I get my camera charged up I will take a picture myself. When new, the black tensioner is shaped so that only the extreme edges touch the film and the picture area is left free. Well gradually over time the edges of the film 'dig' into the black plastic and wear into it causing little flats either side of the film. With more wear the film rubs more and the little flats become bigger in area eventually causing the the picture area of the film to touch the black plastic.

The fix is simply to remove the black tensioner (and spring) and to reshape it so that when the film is between the grooves as you say, only the edges of the film are touching and not the picture area. Its okay for about 1mm to touch the plastic either side as this will not harm the picture area. To reshape it, its up to you. I used a small grinder and a sharp knife but as said on the other site, you can smooth it with a soldering iron and use very fine sandpaper (or similar) to make it all smooth again. Just be careful not to damage it too much.

Do a search on both forums and you will find lots of info.

Graham S

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted January 03, 2012 05:40 AM

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Hi, there! About a year ago, I replaced the tensioner with a small rubber roller on my GS 1200; no friction at all between film and tensioner; I used a small walkman's pinch roller and glued it on the existing tensioner; then I rearranged the spring so that its force is a little decreased. I love this arrangement, whose only drawback is I have to push the loop former when I switch from mag playback to optical. But the scratching problem is solved in that region.

--------------------
Maurizio

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Antoine Orsero
Master Film Handler

Posts: 374
From: marseille france
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 04, 2012 04:51 AM

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Me, I stuck to the black power on a small piece of aluminum sticker purchased in rolls in a hardware store! Once smooth, the film only uses the most part. Moreover we can replace the small piece of aluminum easily [Wink]

[Wink]

[Wink]

--------------------
Tony

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted January 04, 2012 08:59 AM

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Hi Adam.
Its worth remembering that you noticed no scratches when projecting the film first time so this would indicate damage is occurring once the film has left the gate and not above it. My guess is that the damage is being caused by the metal film guide/chute just below the gate prior to entering the sound heads. Have a good look at the metal plating on that guide and see if it has worn away near the top opening loosing its shine, if so my guess is you are down to base metal and will need to have a re-plate done to it.
Hope the above is of help. [Cool]

[Cool]

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted January 04, 2012 06:21 PM

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Adam, before getting too paranoid, remember even the most meticulous of us have managed to put scratches on film, whether we care to admit to it or not.

Have you used the projector before without causing this scratch?

If so, it is unlikely a part has suddenly become worn.

You mention "gunk" a couple of times. The path should be pristine throughout.

Get in there with cotton buds and make sure it is totally clean in every respect.

Careful with cleaning solutions...don't use head-cleaner near rubber rollers. Don't be afraid to use a little soap and water with cotton buds on plastic film guides, but keep it away from electrical parts and let it dry thoroughly.

You're right to then air-dust the whole path before each reel.

Then run some clean test-film you don't care about through a few times.

If the scratch persists or gets worse then and only then do you have to start thinking about worn parts.

Let us know how you get on...it can be stressful when all you want to do is enjoy your films!

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Adam Deierling
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 717
From: OH
Registered: Nov 2010

posted January 04, 2012 06:52 PM

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Thanks evryone for your help. After a good cleaning and running some test film, no scratch appeared! I think I am going to make it a point to inspet and clean the projector before any screening just to be safe. Ive a;ways been careful but I have noticed a few parts in there that had gunk on that I never cleaned before. Knowing this I can be sure they stay clean in the future. I really do love this projector and would hate to think that its ruining my good films. Luckily the scratch was just a fine hairline and hardly noticeable so not to take away from future enjoyment of the film. But I tend to be very picky when it comes to my prints. They are just to hard to find and lets face it, expensive! Thanks again for everyone's help!

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted January 04, 2012 09:08 PM

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Adam, that is great news!

To be quite honest, I'm pretty much OCD when it comes to cleaning my projectors and prints!!! And I'm not ashamed to admit it!

Both my Elmo and Bealieau get regular inspections, cleans, head-de-mags, etc.

And before EVERY reel I give the path a quick wipe through with a lint free cloth and a quick air-dust, audience or not!

Often, the sound of blasting compressed air before a film turns heads, but I just quip, "you don't get this with video projection!"

Having made sure the prints are spotless by cleaning them before they go near the projectors, I even quickly check the emerging film leader after threading each reel, just to make sure it hasn't shread a tiny bit of film anywhere in the path.

Despite all this, and despite priding myself on keeping my valued films safe run after run, I've still mangaged, over many years of film collecting, and having running thousands of feet of film, to add the occassional scratch. Anyone who claims not to is just fibbing. And each time I curse myself and start tearing the projector apart.

Fortunately, they were mostly light and often inexplicable...

Sometimes, despite the best care, these things just happen.

It's part of the process of dealing with "real" film and I know it can be really upsetting to think you've damaged a precious film in anyway, but rest assured, you're not the first...!

What matters is that you noticed it and that you care. That, my friend, elevates you above many so-called film collectors I have encountered in the past (or bought prints from!!!) [Wink]

[Wink]

Glad you're not looking at replacing any projector parts just yet! [Smile]

[Smile]

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted January 05, 2012 03:44 AM

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Adam. Its worth cleaning the film path and gate after every show not least because the projector is ready to use at the following show. Good news you are back in business as well. [Smile]

[Smile]

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