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Author Topic: Elmo ST-800 Belt Replacement & Film Feed Problem
Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

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From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
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 - posted January 31, 2012 11:23 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can not see any movement on the back side of the projector. Allbeit the part I am moving is pretty inaccessible and I can only move it slightly.

[ January 31, 2012, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

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Janice

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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 - posted January 31, 2012 12:25 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some years back I got a really great ST-800 parts machine (low hours, bent frame) and basically stripped it to the bones replacing worn parts of my runner.

The good news is with it in the pillaged condition it's in, I can easily get to the places you're interested in (the entire soundhead, guide, chute assembly is removed) and let you know what should be happening!

-Stay tuned!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
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 - posted January 31, 2012 10:28 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve that would be great if you could see how that mechanism works. I guess it's possible I did something putting on the new belts..it was pretty tight getting the motor belt on. It's so odd that everything else on the projector is working so well. I'll be standing by [Smile]

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 534
From: Gold Coast. Australia
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted February 01, 2012 07:14 AM      Profile for frank arnstein   Author's Homepage   Email frank arnstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janice,
While we await further advice from Steve there is 2 small things you can check now.
The green film chute that wont move out may just be tight on its pivot, located lower down and it has a lock nut on it. It needs to be free to rotate on the pivot so spray lubricant into it and work it by hand to see why it wont move open. It has a long spring attatched below that should pull the chute out (or in)? when its not being moved and held by the metal bracket device at the top of the chute.
This weird metal bracket device is pushed by another that pivots around a philip screw and so that also needs to be free to slide. A small lube spray there may be needed and a bit more just behind the sound head. This weird metal piece also opens the sound head when you are threading film. It is subject to a tiny spring, so make sure its all free to slide and move open the sound head to let the film through it.

After you report back with your findings we will continue on and see what Steve finds out by then.

regards
dogtor frankarnstein [Razz]

--------------------
At Projector Heaven the Focus is always on Detail.

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[o:/o]<|=- dogtor@projectorheaven.com.au
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Roger Shunk
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: Nov 2011


 - posted February 01, 2012 08:12 AM      Profile for Roger Shunk   Author's Homepage   Email Roger Shunk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve,
Do you happen to have in your spare parts the focus assembly for the Elmo ST-800?

Thanks,
Roger

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted February 01, 2012 08:43 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janice,

The news is pretty good. The parts you are interested in are fairly accessable.

Here is a view of the ST-800 with the flywheel and the power board removed. The cotter pin is still on the flywheel shaft.

 -

The blue dot shows the plate that the chute linkage is behind. This is the part that directly pushes on the chute. (Note the worm gear up top for reference.)

The red dot in both photos shows the link that gets pushed by the cam on the control knob shaft. Seeing whether this part moves with the knob would tell you a lot. The linkage that goes up past the motor body is for the threading guide. (My mistake.)

Here is a closeup:

 -

[ February 01, 2012, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Steve Klare ]

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted February 01, 2012 04:04 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve & Frank...Thanks for hanging in with me on this problem. I checked the chute movement manually and it doesn't feel tight or obstructed to me. I did lube it...but no change. On the back the control knob shaft moves, but does not push the link to the chute.

Here'a picture to compare to your's Steve...
 -

AND...Here's video so you guys can see what I'm seeing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URQzmN43_tQ&feature=youtu.be

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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 - posted February 01, 2012 05:12 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow!

Who would have thought all this internet age tech would come to bear on fixing a Super-8 projector?

I'm guessing that link is gummed up and stuck. I swear it seems to budge a tiny bit. Is there somewhere you can grab onto it and work it back and forth?

We're not dragging a bulldozer out of a ditch here: just gentle encouragement! (Bending or twisting one of these could be very bad.)

I think the best bet is to try this in anything else than (Fwd, Lamp). These are the ones it's not working in, so that's where "budge" should become "slide"!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Pasquale DAlessio
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From: Bristol,RI, USA
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 - posted February 01, 2012 06:05 PM      Profile for Pasquale DAlessio   Email Pasquale DAlessio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janice

First of all your nails look very nice!

Now onto the projector.

I agree with Steve. I watched the video several times in slo-mo and looked at the spots (paint) in the background. That linkage does move a tad. I'm thinking a little lube and gentle persuation will help it along. Just remember not to break a nail:)

PatD

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
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 - posted February 01, 2012 06:26 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I realize in the video I should have labeled the Control Knob positions as the shaft was moving.

1. When the knob is on OFF...the control shaft is fixed to the right (as shown in my photo directly above.
2. When the knob is then put in the FORWARD position...the shaft moves to the left.
3. When put in the FORWARD/LIGHT position...it moves back right.
4. In REVERSE, REVERSE/LIGHT...it stays on the right.

Is this how it's working on your machine Steve?

The link doesn't move at all... not even with some encouragement. The shaft moves back and forth on a screw. Is that screw connected to the link?

Steve...you can probably see more of what's going on then I can. I'm still thinking the only way to really see what's blocking this movement is to remove the plate under the worm gear.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted February 01, 2012 06:44 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think you can move the power board out of the way by removing a few screws and unplugging a connector or two.

Pat is right, a little lube and some patience may do the job here.

I'll visit the skeleton and report back later!

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
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 - posted February 01, 2012 07:49 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
@Pat, thanks for the compliment on the nails..however I think it's going to take more than lubricant and nudging to get that linkage moving.

@ Steve...I'd be lying if I didn't say frustration has begun setting in...after looking at the linkage to exhaustion..I agree it does move slightly. I've nudged it with more than adequate force and it is not moving. However what's to say there isn't something stopping or blocking it from moving on the chute side of the linkage opposed to it being stuck on the control knob side? The reason I say this is that I would think the linkage would move when the chute is opened and closed. I'm hoping your skelton machine Steve will answer that question.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted February 01, 2012 09:32 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Janice,

When the knob is placed in "FWD, Lamp" that link slides backwards on my junker.

For everything else it moves forwards and stays there.

I think moving the link forwards is they way to go. (maybe the follower has slipped off the lobe of the cam...)

I'm not sure removing that plate gains you anything.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted February 01, 2012 11:56 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just need to get terminology clear. In my previous post I was describing the position of the SHAFT in front of the LINK that pushes the chute. In your observation you referred to the backward and forward movement of the LINK itself...so I'm a bit confused [Confused]
Answers to these question will help me understand what should be happening...

1. Is the SHAFT movement when changing the control knob correct as I've listed above? If not what should it be?

2. Does the SHAFT connect and control the LINK? ...and if so, does the LINK move in the same direction as the SHAFT when the control knob is turned... in other words right and left (opposed to backward and forward).

3. You said the LINK may have slipped off the CAM. Is it the SHAFT or the LINK connected to the CAM or both?

4. What is a "junker"? What is a "follower"? What's the meaning of life?

5. Do you have an Excedrin?

[ February 02, 2012, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 534
From: Gold Coast. Australia
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted February 02, 2012 03:57 AM      Profile for frank arnstein   Author's Homepage   Email frank arnstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janice

I have looked at an ST 800 junker that I found here and removed the plate with the 3 plastic gears that you spoke of. Underneath I found a link which pivots on a screw. Its possible that on your projector the pivot is tight there. Otherwise there is only a rod that pushes the link to the chute opener. It comes off easily so you can see under it.

So there's not much I can see from a mechanical point of view, that should prevent the chute and sound head from opening and closing properly, and at the right time, if its properly lubed.

Have another try and tell us if you have any luck.

dogtor frankarnstein

[Smile]

--------------------
At Projector Heaven the Focus is always on Detail.

____
[o:/o]<|=- dogtor@projectorheaven.com.au
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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted February 02, 2012 08:40 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
1. What you call the shaft I believe to be the control linkage for the threading guide. That's another story altogether. We are interested in the linkage for the chute (red dottted) and why yours seems...unmotivated.

2. The two linkages are controlled by different cams on the control knob shaft, and while they work in a sequence move independently.

3. Both (See #2 bove)

4' A Junker is a deceased projector useful only for parts for the living. (Also a Prussian Nobleman..but that's different!) A follower is a wheel or a slider that rests on the surface of a cam and is pushed outwards when a cam lobe passes under it. The Meaning of Life is Love in all it's varied and splendid forms. Without Love our lives remain inwardly focussed and we lack a sense of purpose and belonging. Through Love we can bring joy to others and they to us as well. It rarely makes our lives easier, just worthwhile. (You asked!)

5. I am almost out of Exedrin and what I have seems to be going vinegarish...

What were we talking about?

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted February 02, 2012 10:40 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Frank for taking a look behind that plate. I will have to do the same since I can't reach, push, or lubricate anything with that linkage all covered up...there's just no room. I would rather remove the plate and not the whole power assembly if possible.

I removed the plate with the gears...here's a video of my progress...or lack of.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LmVuMgKv4o&feature=youtu.be

[ February 02, 2012, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 534
From: Gold Coast. Australia
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted February 02, 2012 04:29 PM      Profile for frank arnstein   Author's Homepage   Email frank arnstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janice

I watched the videos and your attempt to push the control rod to the left with a screwdriver to get it to move. Why weren't you doing this using the main control knob? I wanted to see the 2 rods moving while the knob is fully operated. Its the rod behind that I really wanted to watch. It should be opening the chute when threading and move back to allow the sound head to close when its switched to project/sound. There is a return spring acting on this rod so it should move unless its really stuck.
From observing the chute side, there appears to be nothing wrong. It seems free. I would like to see a video of the chute/head movement when fully operated from the control knob, not by your hand.

dogtor [Razz]

--------------------
At Projector Heaven the Focus is always on Detail.

____
[o:/o]<|=- dogtor@projectorheaven.com.au
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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
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 - posted February 02, 2012 06:34 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You got it Frank...here's the video you asked for. It looks like the linkage is moving a bit more now...but still not moving all the way to the left.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKxxmHNJ__4&feature=youtu.be

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Pasquale DAlessio
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 - posted February 02, 2012 06:38 PM      Profile for Pasquale DAlessio   Email Pasquale DAlessio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Progress! [Eek!]

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted February 02, 2012 07:46 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Go!
Go!
Go!
Go!


--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 534
From: Gold Coast. Australia
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted February 03, 2012 12:05 AM      Profile for frank arnstein   Author's Homepage   Email frank arnstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janice

I am interested in the position at the begining of your video.
You call it "forwards, lamp on".

I call it "Forwards with Sound On". That position should allow the sound head to close fully onto the film. Prior to moving to that position, the Chute and sound head should be open, allowing film to feed through the sound head and past the rollers.

From what I see on the video it appears this is happening as it should. In other words, the chute and sound head should be open while threading and it appears from the video looking from behind that it is.

What about another video of the other side, detailing the sound head to show if its open enough for film to pass through when Off, then threading and then showing how it should shut closed when moved to Lamp and Sound ON.

I will wait for more visual assistance from you but from the rear it appears to be working OK. Film should thread OK.

dogtor frankarnstein

[Smile]

--------------------
At Projector Heaven the Focus is always on Detail.

____
[o:/o]<|=- dogtor@projectorheaven.com.au
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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
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 - posted February 03, 2012 12:25 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know it looks in the video like the linkage moves far enough to the left to open the chute...but it doesn't. With a little force I was able to push it left to open the chute, but it clicked and locked in that position. Turning the control knob to lamp sound on would not release it...so I nudged it...it clicked and went back, which closed the chute.

How about I set up 2 cameras (front & back). Then show the two videos on a split screen :-) I'll try and set that up tomorrow. It will take a little time...but I think it will be worth it.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 534
From: Gold Coast. Australia
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 - posted February 03, 2012 05:05 AM      Profile for frank arnstein   Author's Homepage   Email frank arnstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janice

While we are waiting for production of your next video showing the close up movement of the sound head and chute area, I would like you to try running a film through the machine without the white leader attatched to it. Make sure there is minimal curl in the film and that it is properly trimmed. See if that gets through... It just may. Worth a try.

dogtor frankarnstein [Razz]

--------------------
At Projector Heaven the Focus is always on Detail.

____
[o:/o]<|=- dogtor@projectorheaven.com.au
//``\\
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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted February 03, 2012 11:16 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd have to put the machine back together again. Right now the gear plate beneath to the worm gear is removed and the flywheel. [Frown] I had to do this to get a clear view of what the leakage was doing. Will the machine behave differently with film and the motor running? Perhaps Steve can answer this question since he has a working machine.

BTW. When the control knob is in the OFF position...shouldn't the chute guide and heads be in the raised (up) position? They aren't now. The leakage doesn't push it far enough to raise them.

[ February 03, 2012, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Janice Glesser ]

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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