8mm Forum


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | my password | register | search | faq | register | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» 8mm Forum   » 8mm Forum   » Review Wolverine Reels2Digital MovieMaker 8mm film digitizer (Page 18)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 19 pages: 1  2  3  ...  15  16  17  18  19 
 
Author Topic: Review Wolverine Reels2Digital MovieMaker 8mm film digitizer
Werner Ruotsalainen
Film Handler

Posts: 73
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Dec 2017


 - posted December 31, 2018 03:07 AM      Profile for Werner Ruotsalainen   Email Werner Ruotsalainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
@Kevin R Sexton:

quote:
it's hard to judge exposure and sharpness, so I left them on default
Dial sharpness to minimum to minimize compression artefacts. It's possible the setting has no effect: a firmware version was buggy in this respect (see my earlier posts on this matter in this thread).

quote:
looks like it is captured at less than 1080, highly compressed, then upscaled to 1080
Note that not even the best possible film stock + camera combination can even reach the resolution of 720p. The best one can realistically expect from quality(!) stock like Kodachrome is something a little bit over DVD quality, and that's with the best possible scanning methods (the $5000+ MovieStuff gear). The Wolverine has a little bit worse resolution and significantly worse dynamic range than the 15-times-more-expensive MovieStuff scanner.

 |  IP: Logged

Mike Spice
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 194
From: Chichester, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted December 31, 2018 10:13 AM      Profile for Mike Spice   Email Mike Spice   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
QUOTE:

Super 8 film has a maximum horizontal resolution of around 900 lines.

9.5mm has 1070 lines '

16mm film has a maximum horizontal resolution of around 1800 lines.

Standard definition video is limited to 576 lines.

 |  IP: Logged

Werner Ruotsalainen
Film Handler

Posts: 73
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Dec 2017


 - posted December 31, 2018 12:55 PM      Profile for Werner Ruotsalainen   Email Werner Ruotsalainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Super 8 film has a maximum horizontal resolution of around 900 lines.
Yup; in practice, however, even the best-quality stuff I've bought off eBay and scanned can just surpass the DVD WRT resolution. It's a long way away from 720p. (Of course, it's way better than anything consumer low-band analogue video (VHS / Beta / V8 etc.), and better than even high-band consumer formats like Hi8 or S-VHS, particularly because of the very high color resolution.)

(I don't list the stuff I've shot myself because, back in the day, I shot on AgfaColor Super8 and (because of their very low price) ORWO/Fortepan Std8. AgfaColor is trash compared to Kodachrome (too bad Agfa was more widely available here in Europe than Kodak and, consequently, I shot Agfa back then). And while ORWO produced way better quality than most people think, the format - Std8 - just doesn't have much resolution.)

 |  IP: Logged

Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 4705
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted December 31, 2018 04:00 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Werner, was Agfacolor the same as Gevacolor (Agfa-Geavart)? I shot a few rolls of Gevacolor on double 8mm back in the 1950's, and its now all completely pink, whereas my 1950 Kodachrome's looks like it was processed yesterday.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,

 |  IP: Logged

Werner Ruotsalainen
Film Handler

Posts: 73
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Dec 2017


 - posted January 01, 2019 03:49 AM      Profile for Werner Ruotsalainen   Email Werner Ruotsalainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yup, it uses the same tech as Agfa - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gevacolor

Interestingly, Agfa's earlier color tech ages much better than the one they produced in the 50...80's. For example, I have several rolls of East-German Std8 Agfa films shot in 1955 and 1956. (GDR used the "Agfa" trademark up until 1964 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORWO -, when they switched to "ORWO".) Those films still use Agfa's 40's color technology and show no color swifts. (Of course, their resolution is significantly worse than B/W film produced by the same factory.) ORWO, fortunately (as, back in the day, I shot a lot of color Std8 rolls on ORWO), later has always produced decently-aging film.

Some examples of these GDR films (look for the 1955/1956 films; about half of them are color): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4_1cuziVtq9GS95obZZnNCfD7ol_M8XM

 |  IP: Logged

Gary Schreffler
Film Handler

Posts: 33
From: North Potomac, MD, USA
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted January 01, 2019 11:55 AM      Profile for Gary Schreffler   Author's Homepage   Email Gary Schreffler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have the Pro model. I only convert home movies filmed aboard Navy ships. A LOT! I do all conversions with the exposure (shutter/f-stop) set to the minimum -2.0, and sharpness set to low. That seems to largely minimize the artifacts discussed elsewhere. The only issue I have experienced is a flicker effect, as scenes go from dark to bright, or worse, dark foreground with bright background.

I discussed this at length with the Wolverine technical support folks, and we came up with an idea that has 100% eliminated the flicker problem; shining a light at the camera. Not directly, but enough to trick the sensor.

I am attaching a photo, demonstrating this. I simply use my iPhone (while plugged in!). I haven't seen any other comments on the flicker issue, also maybe strobing, but decided to chime in anyway, in case it helps someone else...

Gary

PS:.I can't seem to load a photo. Contact me directly, and I'll happily provide one.

--------------------
My God; It's Full Of Stars!

 |  IP: Logged

Werner Ruotsalainen
Film Handler

Posts: 73
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Dec 2017


 - posted January 01, 2019 02:47 PM      Profile for Werner Ruotsalainen   Email Werner Ruotsalainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sure I'd be interested in the photo. info AT winmobiletech DOT com; I can then repost the image here for the others.

 |  IP: Logged

Gary Schreffler
Film Handler

Posts: 33
From: North Potomac, MD, USA
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted January 01, 2019 03:32 PM      Profile for Gary Schreffler   Author's Homepage   Email Gary Schreffler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just sent.

--------------------
My God; It's Full Of Stars!

 |  IP: Logged

Werner Ruotsalainen
Film Handler

Posts: 73
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Dec 2017


 - posted January 01, 2019 03:49 PM      Profile for Werner Ruotsalainen   Email Werner Ruotsalainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here it is:

 -

 |  IP: Logged

Gary Schreffler
Film Handler

Posts: 33
From: North Potomac, MD, USA
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted January 01, 2019 04:22 PM      Profile for Gary Schreffler   Author's Homepage   Email Gary Schreffler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My point with the photo is to show where I am pointing the illumination, and also show that the captured image is not impacted. But the flicker/strobe effect is completely eliminated. The iPhone is till I come up with something permanent.

If interested, the film is a home movie from USS Leyte (CVS-32), launching a S-2F Tracker in 1956.

--------------------
My God; It's Full Of Stars!

 |  IP: Logged

Bill Sherren
Junior
Posts: 20
From: Kent, England
Registered: Dec 2018


 - posted January 02, 2019 09:06 AM      Profile for Bill Sherren   Email Bill Sherren   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gary, do you use the light on all the footage or just bits that might strobe? Also I see you miss the top two roller guides when lacing the film. Was that to improve steadiness of the image?

 |  IP: Logged

Gary Schreffler
Film Handler

Posts: 33
From: North Potomac, MD, USA
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted January 02, 2019 09:29 AM      Profile for Gary Schreffler   Author's Homepage   Email Gary Schreffler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bill,
Yes, I keep the light on for the entire run. For my purposes (i.e., amateur films constantly panning from dark to light, etc, with the bright ocean as a backdrop), that works best. As for skipping the pegs, yes; that seems to eliminate the hurky-jerky issue.

--------------------
My God; It's Full Of Stars!

 |  IP: Logged

Bill Sherren
Junior
Posts: 20
From: Kent, England
Registered: Dec 2018


 - posted January 02, 2019 01:09 PM      Profile for Bill Sherren   Email Bill Sherren   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the info Gary. I also notice on your machine it suggests it just had two tabs to fit the film under both on the sprocket hole side. My Pro has three tabs one in the middle of the sprocket hole side. And the two on the other edge of the film.

 |  IP: Logged

Gary Schreffler
Film Handler

Posts: 33
From: North Potomac, MD, USA
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted January 02, 2019 01:51 PM      Profile for Gary Schreffler   Author's Homepage   Email Gary Schreffler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bill, that's interesting; that third tab could be very useful with film suffering from vinegar syndrome, where it is wavy, but salvageable.

I also own a Moviestuff RetroScan. Surprisingly, as is, my Wolverine handles wavy film better than the RetroScan. I like the Wolverine mostly because it isn't tied to a computer. And since I only deal with home movies filmed by sailors, the difference between the two scanners is negligible. I do use the RetroScan for films showing unique or historic events, or scenes filmed in very low light.

I have seen a lot of posts bashing the Wolverine, but I haven't experienced the issues. But I also know not to expect broadcast quality video from 8mm film!!!

--------------------
My God; It's Full Of Stars!

 |  IP: Logged

Jim Elder
Junior
Posts: 2
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted January 02, 2019 04:45 PM      Profile for Jim Elder     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jan Schoonenberg asked what version of the Wolverine 8mm movie scanner is currently being shipped by B&H. I received a unit from B&H in Dec; here's what it looks like inside:

 -

The black rectangle at the right is a small fan (viewed here edge-on) which activates when the scanner is scanning. The back cover (removed here) has four sets of small vents.

The version it reports is 20180419-ZS09

(Wolverine calls this unit a 'Wolverine 8mm and Super 8 3" and 5" Movie Reel to Digital MovieMaker')

[ January 03, 2019, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Jim Elder ]

 |  IP: Logged

Jan Schoonenberg
Junior
Posts: 7
From: Soest, Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2018


 - posted January 02, 2019 05:31 PM      Profile for Jan Schoonenberg   Author's Homepage   Email Jan Schoonenberg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you. This is very helpful. Question: is this now called the Wolverine PLUS? And can handle larger reels than the non-Plus?
I received a catalog from B&H last week but it does not have the Wolverine. Different catalog for Europe maybe?

 |  IP: Logged

Jim Elder
Junior
Posts: 2
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jan 2019


 - posted January 03, 2019 10:46 AM      Profile for Jim Elder     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jan, Wolverine calls the unit a 'Wolverine 8mm and Super 8 3" and 5" Movie Reel to Digital MovieMaker'. AFAIK, they make two models, this one and another that can mount larger reels and has a higher resolution scanner. Check their website (www.wolverinedata.com).

(I also edited the earlier posting to include the product name)

 |  IP: Logged

Jan Schoonenberg
Junior
Posts: 7
From: Soest, Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2018


 - posted January 03, 2019 11:12 AM      Profile for Jan Schoonenberg   Author's Homepage   Email Jan Schoonenberg   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just downloaded the Version 3.0 of the manual from Wolverine. 14 pages. It is the moviemaker PRO . For up to 9" reels. Image sensor 2304H x 1636V. Warranty in the US only. 1 Year or 200 reels (every stop counts for a reel). So glue small reels together [Wink]
Interesting: reverse reels for rewind. Should go faster thanks to the steppermotor.

 |  IP: Logged

Gary Schreffler
Film Handler

Posts: 33
From: North Potomac, MD, USA
Registered: Jun 2017


 - posted January 03, 2019 12:07 PM      Profile for Gary Schreffler   Author's Homepage   Email Gary Schreffler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jan, I have a Pro, and while the motor does a good job advancing the take up reel during captures, it really sucks for rewinding. Very slow. I simply use another projector for rewinding...

--------------------
My God; It's Full Of Stars!

 |  IP: Logged

Bill Sherren
Junior
Posts: 20
From: Kent, England
Registered: Dec 2018


 - posted January 03, 2019 12:37 PM      Profile for Bill Sherren   Email Bill Sherren   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Gary I have just tried another scan missing those two top pegs and this one has on the whole be far steadier. I did need to do a frame adjust as the frame was visible. I had pressed the default setting before scanning which on earlier scans gave a full frame. But not this time! This particular reel does suffer a lot of flickering but don't have a light source such as a mobile to use at the moment. In the Wolverine instructions it calls the exposure auto/manual. But guess even the manual setting is still adjusting the light levels as I would have expected using manual to solve the flickering issue . Will need to see if the altered film path stops this damage to the sprockets or not. As that is the most important issue to eliminate! Thanks for your help...

 |  IP: Logged

Werner Ruotsalainen
Film Handler

Posts: 73
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Dec 2017


 - posted January 03, 2019 01:03 PM      Profile for Werner Ruotsalainen   Email Werner Ruotsalainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
@Jim Elder:

quote:
The version it reports is 20180419-ZS09
That is, there is a newer firmware version out there than the one most of us have. Does anyone know where to download it from? Could please somebody mail the Winait folks and ask if they could make the firmware public?

This thread also mentioned somikon.de as the source of the firmware, which is the same as pearl.de (with the link below). Unfortunately, the pearl.de firmware at https://www.pearl.de/support/product.jsp?pdid=NX4294 is the currently only “official” and downloadable firmware I know of. It is buggy as I’ve explained in the 13th post (posted March 24, 2018 10:06 AM) on page 13 ( http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=011395;p= 13 ) of this thread.

Therefore, I use and currently recommend the 30 fps 16 Mbps hacked one at http://retromania.pandelground.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/FWDV180N_1440x108 0_24fps_8000.zip . It has the internal version of 20170511-ZS04. That is, it's about a year older than the one you've posted about.

 |  IP: Logged

Kevin R Sexton
Junior
Posts: 3
From: Littlerock, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2018


 - posted January 05, 2019 07:50 PM      Profile for Kevin R Sexton   Email Kevin R Sexton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's a clip from the file, hopefully I got it cut without changing quality, of course then youtube does their own thing with it. https://youtu.be/kKACsgEHCAU

Going to try redoing it tomorrow with the low sharpness setting, along with trying to find what firmware version it's on.
If it was recording beyond the limits of the original film, I'd expect to see grain. This looks more to me like pixelation, then resizing up with poor interpolation combined with an excessive sharpening filter.

 |  IP: Logged

Werner Ruotsalainen
Film Handler

Posts: 73
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Dec 2017


 - posted January 06, 2019 12:33 AM      Profile for Werner Ruotsalainen   Email Werner Ruotsalainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yup, sharpening MUST be dialed down. BTW, if it's the 20fps firmware, it might have a non-working sharpening setting. (No matter what you set, it captures with the default sharpness.)

BTW, your footage seems to overcapture between the sprocket holes - something pretty common, with, for example, the Kodak Brownies. This essentially makes the footage "widescreen". This is why I scan footage like this fully zoomed out (W=0) so that I can also include the "overcapture" area in the scanned footage too.

 |  IP: Logged

Kevin R Sexton
Junior
Posts: 3
From: Littlerock, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2018


 - posted January 06, 2019 06:04 PM      Profile for Kevin R Sexton   Email Kevin R Sexton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Firmware is 20180323-ZS08
As far as we know the film was recorded with an Argus camera, image does go halfway through the sprockets. I'm running the transfer right now on low sharpness. Once it's dark I'm going to try to get a still captured off a projector screen to compare.

 |  IP: Logged

Werner Ruotsalainen
Film Handler

Posts: 73
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Dec 2017


 - posted January 07, 2019 04:07 AM      Profile for Werner Ruotsalainen   Email Werner Ruotsalainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks! That is, there are at least two 2018 firmware versions: 20180323-ZS08 and 20180419-ZS09. Is anyone here in email conversation with the Winait folks so that we could ask them to make these new firmware versions public?

 |  IP: Logged



All times are Central
This topic comprises 19 pages: 1  2  3  ...  15  16  17  18  19 
 
Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic    next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Visit www.film-tech.com for free equipment manual downloads. Copyright 2003-2010 Film-Tech Cinema Systems LLC

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.3.1.2