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» 8mm Forum   » 8mm Forum   » HERE AGAIN: A new crystal sync control for GS1200 (Page 1)

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Author Topic: HERE AGAIN: A new crystal sync control for GS1200
Renzo Dal Bo
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Mogliano Veneto, Italy
Registered: Dec 2016


 - posted October 05, 2018 12:15 PM      Profile for Renzo Dal Bo   Email Renzo Dal Bo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"Renzo's Box" is coming ...

I wish to present in this forum, who saw its birth, the first batch of this completely new conception crystal sync control for Elmo GS1200, based on a microprocessor.
After a period of deep positive tests, on request of some members of this forum, I decided to build some of these boxes.

Briefly its main characteristics:

"Renzo's box" is capable to generate sync pulses, to feed the ESS socket of the GS1200 projector, in way that the projector speed remains absolutely constant, following the timing pulses.
It works with five selectable speeds: 16.667 - 18 - 23.976 - 24 - 25 fps.
But on request I could insert, for example, the 19.980 speed instead of 16.667 fps. This is useful to made a NTSC telecine without flickering, of a film originally shoot at 18 fps and projected with a three blades GS1200 projector.
The pulses accuracy is very high: it is under +/- 0.5 microsecond ( +/- 0.5 millionth of a second). So that the maximum error is about 1 frame every 2 hours at 16.667 fps speed and 1 frame every hour at 25 fps speed.
The pulses' start and stop are controlled by hand with a switch.
The box can be powered both by a 9V battery or by an external 9V power supply.

For those who don't know what can be done with your GS1200 and a sync crystal control like the Renzo's box:

1) - The first obvious thing is to mantain the projection speed absolutely constant also at different speeds regarding to those originally provided (18/24 fps).
2) - To project a S8 film in sync with an external sound source (eg. from DVD, BR, VHS, ...) with better quality than allowed by the original sound recorded on the film track.
3) - To re-record or dub the sound track of a S8 film in sync with an external sound source already seen above.
4) - To made a telecine in sync with a video camera without flickering (both PAL or NTSC)

Here are some photos of the already built boxes.

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In a few days I think to sell some Renzo's boxes in this forum, but first I wish to know how many members, other than those who already contacted me, are seriously interested about it. I'm not a dealer but only a passionate, just like the majority of you. Knowing the number of possible interested people, will help me to fix a reasonable price, main based on craft hours. So please who interested could send me a PM.

Thanks to everyone, in particular to those who made it possible for this project to exist.

Renzo

Take a look at this thread for more information about the development of this project:
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=011864

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 4816
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted October 05, 2018 12:32 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Renzo, will the box be able to be used in the USA to sync region 1 DVD's and Blu Ray Discs to re-record super 8 film prints?

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Renzo Dal Bo
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Mogliano Veneto, Italy
Registered: Dec 2016


 - posted October 05, 2018 12:49 PM      Profile for Renzo Dal Bo   Email Renzo Dal Bo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, I entered the 23.976 fps speed right to keep the projector in sync with the NTSC standard.

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 936
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted October 06, 2018 01:06 PM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Excuse my ignorance but exactly how does this work? I know you plug into the ESS socket of the GS from the box. Then take the DVD player and plug that into the GS.

Is there any othr connection from DVD player to box?
How do you sync DVD to GS image on film?
What if I sync the film image to a cut and want to go in reverse will the DVD player follow the GS?

In this day and age a video of how it operates would be helpful.

I've always wanted to get one of these but not sure how it works.

How much is the price?

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Paul Browning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 992
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted October 06, 2018 01:44 PM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pulses out of the box locks the gs to that frame rate, then you need to locate the frame on film that is the same frame on the dvd /blue ray, and providing the cut is the same on both it will sync up and stay there. Some of the derann prints are good for this, I believe grease is one example, but it only needs a couple of frame missing, maybe when the film has been joined together or damaged frames removed, this is when the work really starts. Keeping the constant of the projector was always a problem when doing this, this unit makes it much easier to control at least one thing in he chain.....

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Renzo Dal Bo
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Mogliano Veneto, Italy
Registered: Dec 2016


 - posted October 11, 2018 04:33 AM      Profile for Renzo Dal Bo   Email Renzo Dal Bo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
For all those people who contacted me, showing interest about my synch box for Elmo GS1200, today I will send a PM with my special offer for the first batch of Renzo's Boxes.
Please check your mail and confirm as soon as possible your order.
Thank you.

Renzo

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Renzo Dal Bo
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Mogliano Veneto, Italy
Registered: Dec 2016


 - posted October 17, 2018 05:41 AM      Profile for Renzo Dal Bo   Email Renzo Dal Bo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
READY TO GO!

 -

The first batch of Renzo's Boxes is sold out!
Thanks to all of you who confirmed their interest with a order.
You are more than the number of sync boxes I had already built.
But don't worry, I think within 30/40 days to be able in building another batch to fulfil all the requests.
I need the time to receive all the raw materials, I already ordered, to start another manufacture.
Hear you soon.

Renzo

[ October 18, 2018, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Renzo Dal Bo ]

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1554
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted October 18, 2018 08:34 AM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Schrader   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Would like to be added to the next list but Larry's answer was never answered how about a price?

[ November 20, 2018, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Jim Schrader ]

--------------------
jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Renzo Dal Bo
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Mogliano Veneto, Italy
Registered: Dec 2016


 - posted October 19, 2018 03:20 PM      Profile for Renzo Dal Bo   Email Renzo Dal Bo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Jim,
No secret here!
As I wrote in my first post on this thread, I asked to everyone who was seriously interested about my box to send me a PM, and I replied to all of them.
I was very surprised to the number of people who contacted me, more than the four items I had already built.
I am not a dealer and I build this sync box in my spare time, on request, more for the pleasure of helping other fans of our hobby than to speculate.
For the first batch I asked a special low price of 100 Euro + shipping cost.
This price doesn't cover all the project expences, so I asked to add a voluntary non-mandatory contribution to support the project and which gave the right to receive first the boxes I had already built. I promised to the others who confirmed with a order I will build the remaining "Renzo's Boxes" as soon as possible. I think within 30/40 days.
I would like the forum members, who will receive soon the first batch's boxes, leave here a feedback.
If someone else wants to participate in the game, under the same conditions, I have nothing against it. Just contact me by PM.

Renzo

[ October 20, 2018, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: Renzo Dal Bo ]

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Renzo Dal Bo
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Mogliano Veneto, Italy
Registered: Dec 2016


 - posted November 20, 2018 11:19 AM      Profile for Renzo Dal Bo   Email Renzo Dal Bo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As promised, I delivered all the remaining Renzo's sync boxes of the second batch. If any other forum member needs one sync box, I still have the components to built a few others, but hurry up to send me a PM because at the end of the current month the special price offer will end.

Meanwhile I had been working around a very useful accessory that can be attached to the Renzo's sync Box and makes it usable with any other projector different from the GS1200.
It is a stroboscopic light that is driven by the sync box and flashes at any of the speed/frequecies you can choose on the box.
With it you can check on the fly if any projector is running at the correct speed.
If it is a variable speed projector you can also adjust the speed in way that it become very accurate.
You can see it in the following animated gif image.

 -

And since Christmas is coming, I decided to send for free one of these accessories to the three best contributors among those who bought my sync box and made the highest voluntary donations.
So the next days, watch out your post box for a Christmas gift with my best thanks and wishes.

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1624
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007


 - posted November 20, 2018 12:43 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just spectacular, Renzo. I hope you'll be able to keep these available (at least from time to time) for years to come. I hope "Pedro" is OK, but since he's disappeared, thank you for stepping up and filling the void he left.

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John Armer
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Lancaster, UK
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted November 21, 2018 08:28 AM      Profile for John Armer   Email John Armer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I believe that Pedro offered a version of his box for use with other projectors including the Bauer T610. I'm not sure how that worked though as there is no ESS socket on this projector... probably needed mods to the Bauer. I'd be very interested if you were able to provide a solution for this machine, Renzo.

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 966
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted November 21, 2018 11:19 AM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio   Email Maurizio Di Cintio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello, I can confirm Pedro had a solution to quartz sync the Bauer T 610, too: before I upgraded t othe GS 1200, I was imterested in syncing the 610 so he sent me the instructions to make the relevant mods, prior to purchasing the PCB from him, in order to have a precise idea as to the degree of complexity inherent; nothing particuarly mind-bogging if you can use a soldering unit; what really put me off at the time was the price much higher than the regular controller for the GS (I mean: multiple times....).

So the T 610 can be quartz-locked but at a high price.

--------------------
Maurizio

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Stuart Reid
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 718
From: Worthing, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Feb 2009


 - posted November 21, 2018 12:16 PM      Profile for Stuart Reid   Email Stuart Reid   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maurizio, if Renzo had the notes from you, is it possible he could supply the sync boxes for the T610 too?

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Alan Gouger
Master Film Handler

Posts: 448
From: Florida
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted November 21, 2018 01:16 PM      Profile for Alan Gouger   Email Alan Gouger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow this is exciting and yes 23.976 is the frequency needed for the US market, thank you for adding this Renzo.

Renzo I have a question if you dont mind, like many I am using a 220V/50hz GS in the US. I use a 220/110 down convertor
but the 50hz remains so I run the projector at 18fps, the end result is close to 24fps. Will I be able to use the "Renzo's Box?

Thank you Renzo.

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John Armer
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 134
From: Lancaster, UK
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted November 21, 2018 01:19 PM      Profile for John Armer   Email John Armer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the reply Maurizio. I would pay more for a T610 sync unit and electronics work isn't a problem for me to arrange. I can't see me ever getting a GS1200 so this is the route I'd prefer to take... if you factor in, say £100 per time to have someone re-record a feature for you, I'm sure this would pay for itself before long.

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 966
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted November 21, 2018 02:02 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio   Email Maurizio Di Cintio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Indeed...

Stuart, the info I got at that time (must have been around 2002 or 2003), only detail the tasks to perform in order to install the board which Pedro would have supplied to me had I decided to purchase it eventually. It doesn't contain any schematics. What I can say for sure, if I recall properly, is the board was meant to be installed inside the projector and was to be wired inbetween the motor control board and the motor itself. Perhaps also some feed from the frame counter on the shutter shaft was envisioned but I am not sure, I should check those information. From what I gathered at the time, the board relied on pre-existant elements (namely the frame counter and the motor regulator) in order to compare the actual frame rate with the desired (25 fps) frame rate in real time; and for tweaking it (in real time as well) whenever necessary; but how the system could accomplish this is no kettle of fish of mine. Although I think people like Renzo here could easily envisage something... Sorry I am no electronic guy.

--------------------
Maurizio

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Stuart Reid
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 718
From: Worthing, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Feb 2009


 - posted November 21, 2018 03:30 PM      Profile for Stuart Reid   Email Stuart Reid   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maurizio, thank you - let's hope Renzo has opportunity to turn his attention to the Bauer machine.

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Stuart Hilliker
Film Handler

Posts: 77
From: London
Registered: Dec 2006


 - posted November 21, 2018 03:33 PM      Profile for Stuart Hilliker   Email Stuart Hilliker   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would definitely buy one!

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Renzo Dal Bo
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Mogliano Veneto, Italy
Registered: Dec 2016


 - posted November 23, 2018 04:34 AM      Profile for Renzo Dal Bo   Email Renzo Dal Bo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
First my thanks to Bill and Maurizio who ever supported, encouraged and helped me to reach the final result to realize the Renzo's sync Box.

For those who asked if I plan to build a similar solution for other projectors like Bauer 610, I'm sorry, I say definitely NO.
First because I never owned a Bauer 610, and because you probably don't know how much time one wastes to carry out such kind of projects with all risks connected to modify the projector's electronics. Deep modifications moreover left to the ability of the final user. For your curiosity here is what Pedro provided regarding the Bauer projectors.

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A board to insert inside the projector with all the connections to solder to the existing electronics.
At the end these modifications made the projector compatible with one of the external P1008 units (sold separately).
With a total minimum cost of about 500 Euros (ten years ago!) to satisfy your desires. I'd really like to know how many people bought them at that time.

Answering to Alan, sincerely I don't know.
Regarding the GS1200 units made for EU countries (240V/50Hz) and used in the USA (120V/60Hz) with appropriate transformers, you currently set the speed selector to 18 fps to obtain about 22 fps increased to 24 by the speed regulation knob. In normal conditions, with my box, to reach the NTSC standard 23.976 fps, it is necessary set the speed selector to 24 fps and then to rotate the "Pulse Level" knob so that the indicator needle stays firmly in the middle. With your GS1200 you should verify if the range of regulation of that knob allows you to do the same. If you want, I could send you a box for doing a test. After that you can decide to keep or return the box only paying for transport costs. If you agree send me a PM.

At the moment what I can concretely undertake is to extend the use of my box to crystal sync the Braun Visacustic projectors provided with the external control unit.

[ November 23, 2018, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Renzo Dal Bo ]

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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008


 - posted December 17, 2018 11:28 PM      Profile for Dino Everette   Email Dino Everette   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just wanted to say that I love my Renzo box...The main thing i use it for is to ensure true 24fps projection, but it is a quality unit and does exactly what he says it does.....

--------------------
"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"

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Alan Gouger
Master Film Handler

Posts: 448
From: Florida
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted January 04, 2019 10:36 PM      Profile for Alan Gouger   Email Alan Gouger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I received my Renzo box today and fired it up, it is working great. I purchased my GS from overseas, I was not sure if the 50hz would be an issue but I am happy to say the Renzo box is keeping it at a steady 23.97fps. Good work Renzo.

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Burton Sundquist
Master Film Handler

Posts: 262
From: Burnaby, B.C. Canada
Registered: Feb 2017


 - posted March 02, 2019 12:44 AM      Profile for Burton Sundquist   Email Burton Sundquist   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have to agree with everyone praising the Renzo Box. It has allowed me to successfully re-record 2 features that I purchased with German soundtracks. There is no trick to it other than starting the print and the Audio source simultaneously . If the print is missing a few frames then you either have to edit your audio source before you star the re-recording or turn off the Renzo box and re-que the print to source frame. Either way, I am happy with this unit. Hats off to Renzo for his contribution to the hobby!

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Renzo Dal Bo
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Mogliano Veneto, Italy
Registered: Dec 2016


 - posted April 19, 2019 04:38 AM      Profile for Renzo Dal Bo   Email Renzo Dal Bo   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Many thanks to all friends who left a positive feedback of my sync box for Elmo GS 1200 and I hope it met the expectations for all the others, too.
As I let it be understood in my previous post, now I am proud to announce I am able to build a similar sync box for Braun Visacustic projectors, and, if someone is interested in, I could relate about it in another specific thread.
Regarding the possibility to build a similar solution, especially aimed at Bauer projectors, I have been too pessimistic saying "definitely NO".
"Never say never" would have been better to say, because the Phoenix rebirth now it's not so far. However to make this happens I need to find someone who made the change on his Bauer projector according to Pedro's instructions, mounting inside the projector the board you can see in the last photo I previously posted.
Is there in this forum someone who can help me?

Renzo

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Stuart Reid
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 718
From: Worthing, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Feb 2009


 - posted April 22, 2019 10:19 AM      Profile for Stuart Reid   Email Stuart Reid   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm interested in the build for the Visacustic, and would be interested if you are able to carry out the Bauer work.

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