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Author Topic: 2580 worm gear
Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1608
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 04, 2019 10:06 AM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Schrader   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Anybody have the lower gear and worm gear for sale here in the US? not looking for an expensive one as I’ll be attempting this myself I know urbanski sells them but was hoping to find a cheaper version that I can toss if it doesn’t work?

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5789
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted September 04, 2019 10:44 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Bell & Howell 2580 is a great modern slot-loader, and when fitted with new gears should give many years of service.
It's a pity at the moment to try and economise. Fit the best available.
Why not try fellow member Richard C. Patchett's web-site?
http://www.rcsclassic16mm.com/bellhowell.html#MISC_BELL_&_HOWELL_PARTS

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Maurice

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1608
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 04, 2019 12:12 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Schrader   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ive has this for years and loved it so gentle on films but haven’t used it for a while I have looked and there not cheap 60.00 usd and there the aluminum inner with the nylon outer urbanskis version is all aluminum for less may have to go that route that will outlast the rest of the unit. I e got other units but have always liked this one and thought I’d try to fix it.

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted September 06, 2019 02:00 PM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jim I have some brand new worm gears that are the original white nylon type. If you want to try I will give you one. The word is that if this type of gear has never been exposed to the wrong lube that caused all the problems to start with, and you lube it with the proper lube it should last a very long time. Let me know if you want one.

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Live Free or Die

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1608
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 08, 2019 08:20 AM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Schrader   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
David I sent you a pm

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1417
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted September 08, 2019 01:02 PM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Personally I would not put my trust in a worm gear made from two different materials. Laws of science,physics and engineering dictate that different materials have differing rates of expansion and contraction. Ridiculous idea to mount a thin synthetic skin on a metallic cylindrical base. That is surely the cause of the failure of these original worm gears, as the machine heated up during use and cooled down afterwards. Not the lubricant.

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David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted September 08, 2019 02:14 PM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The understanding is that the original grease used on the original worm gears made the nylon brittle which caused it to crack. Heat build up on the worm gears is minimal. While plastic materials will shrink with age, using the proper grease the worm gears will last a very long time. Bell and Howell designed great machines. They built the worm gears as they are to reduce noise. Notice that the new worm gears are built the same but with a newer and better material.

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Live Free or Die

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1417
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted September 08, 2019 04:26 PM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No. The most common and reliable replacement worm gears are made from a solid non metalic material. If what you insinuate about the lubricant being the determining factor, then why have so many failed. I doubt that a few projectors, if any, have had the lubricant changed in their lifetime, so that theory does not hold true. Are you saying that Bell &Howell used the wrong lubricant in the first place?
Rubbish.

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Simon McConway
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1075
From: Doncaster, UK
Registered: Jun 2004


 - posted September 08, 2019 04:37 PM      Profile for Simon McConway   Email Simon McConway   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Worm splitting is not caused by wrong lubrication.

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David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted September 08, 2019 06:20 PM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have two projectors with the replacement worm gear and I have a new replacement worm gear I purchased from Richard Patchett at the Cinevent in Columbus. All three have an aluminum main body with the black new type of plastic on the outside for the threads. Then these must be rubbish and I should bin them all... too bad, my projectors have been going strong for years now. BTW, I read a report once that Bell and Howell had come out and said they had used a lubricant that proved unsatisfactory in the long run causing the worm gears to crack prematurely. Hence the idea that a NOS worm gear installed and using the newer grease would last. It would be interesting to see a test.

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Live Free or Die

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1417
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted September 09, 2019 03:29 AM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a 1698 in mint condition, completely original and little used. The worm is perfect. The projector has always been stored in ideal conditions and I attribute the stae of the worm to these ideal storage conditions. If lubricant is the cause of failure it doesn't relate to my machine. If mine fails I would not consider a two part constructed worm. Common sense and history would dictate that a worm constructed of two completely different materials is more likely to fail than one made from a single material. As for the argument that Bell&Howell went the route they did for quieter running, then why on Earth didn't they make the worm from solid nylon/ synthetic material, as are the most popular and reliable replacement worms available today.

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Simon McConway
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1075
From: Doncaster, UK
Registered: Jun 2004


 - posted September 09, 2019 04:05 AM      Profile for Simon McConway   Email Simon McConway   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Exactly. I have a worm gear never fitted to a projector, never used, never lubricated. It has cracked over time. This highlights the issue is nothing to do with lube.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5789
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted September 09, 2019 04:08 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is my understanding that the black one-piece nylatron worm gear was actually designed by a Bell & Howell engineer in later years.
Obviously, he also knew something.

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Maurice

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1417
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted September 09, 2019 03:06 PM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Once again Maurice's research nails it. Jim - don't waste your money on cheap options. As my old Gran used to say - 'Cheap dear!'

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David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted September 09, 2019 06:39 PM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So obviously there are worm gears made of solid plastic, I have never seen one. Yes, that wood be a better solution as long as there are no other issues with them. Have any of the new black plastic two-piece worm gears cracked?

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Live Free or Die

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1608
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 09, 2019 09:38 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Schrader   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I’ve ordered up the all aluminum version along with the nylon lower gear which was cracked as well from the stress of the worm gear being cracked? Any reason why that one cracked?

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5789
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted September 10, 2019 04:46 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
An eBay sale of a one piece worm:-
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bell-Howell-worm-gear-16mm-projector-500-to-2500-mod-/2326 76112391

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Maurice

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1608
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 10, 2019 12:52 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Schrader   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anybody have a 2580 handy there is a small spring that popped off when I removed the main head and have a feeling it might go in this area?  -
And the spring looks like this-
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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Simon McConway
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1075
From: Doncaster, UK
Registered: Jun 2004


 - posted September 10, 2019 05:08 PM      Profile for Simon McConway   Email Simon McConway   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This spring keeps one of the sprocket guards shut.

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1608
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 10, 2019 05:12 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Schrader   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Simon can you show a picture of where this would go? Thanks

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004


 - posted September 10, 2019 06:39 PM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maurice, thanks for the pic. I think I saw that before but thought it was an aluminum hub because in the pic the threads and through-hole look to me like aluminum. I wonder if there is any dimensional stability issues with making a one piece worm gear out of plastic like Delrin. It seems like Delrin would be so easy to make it out of instead of going to the trouble of making an aluminum hub, attaching a plastic sleeve over it with the threads...

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Paul Repar
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Chicago,Illinois
Registered: Apr 2006


 - posted September 12, 2019 01:31 PM      Profile for Paul Repar   Email Paul Repar   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
In response to all the claims of Bell&Howell and their original worm gears are ideas and opinions,their same lubrication was being used all inside their machines,the aluminum hub with the nylon over it known as the worm gear in my opinion cracked because of heat buildup causing the aluminum to expand and contract,which aluminum does in general when heated.But it could also been the constant use in the school systems as well,just an opinion,in response to Dave,Urbanski Film first original design was Derlin over an aluminum hub,nothing wrong with them,replaced about 25 machines using that particular worm gear,he has now since switched to aircraft aluminium,which is great,will never have an issue again.I have currently replaced about 40 of the new aluminum worm gears,and with the proper adjustments the machine runs super quiet.As far as that spring foes,Sam is right,seems to be a guard spring for a sprocket,if it came out of the lamphouse not sure why it would be there.Any help needed you can watch my worm gear tutorial on a 1500 series via this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVCs17tXDNs&t=7s

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1608
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 12, 2019 09:16 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Schrader   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for that link paul I was watching this and gave me the idea to try it I got it in and the machine runs nice and smooth however my timing must be off I did as you mentioned the claw looked like it was pulling the film however when I loaded it with a countdown leader and tried it it just slid right by the gate.
Oh and by the way the spring I mentioned this is on the upper guide lock this is on there already is there another one? both guides seem to lock into place.
 -

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Paul Repar
Junior
Posts: 12
From: Chicago,Illinois
Registered: Apr 2006


 - posted September 13, 2019 04:48 PM      Profile for Paul Repar   Email Paul Repar   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jim,The reason for the film just "sliding"thru the gate means the 3 claw protrusion needs to be adjusted.There is a small set screw which is located on the "in and out bracket"where the shuttle arms go thru and the 3 claw is attached to.If you aligned the shuttle arms with the claw on the downstroke,where the center tooth of the 3 claw is aligned to the center of the gate opening,you will need to turn that set screw slightly counter clockwise so that the claw protrudes a little more thru the slot,after you do this,and you will have to take the chassis out to do this,get a scrap piece of countdown leader thread it up like your running a film,close the lens carrier,and proceed to turn the belt pulley wheel while looking thru the lens carrier without the lens inserted.You will look and see if the countdown frames are aligned,and you also may have to adjust the framer knob as well.if you here any clicking that will be the look restorer tripping causing the film to want to pull perforations,means you will have to do more adjustments,if the look restore does not trip,then you are well on your way to have the timing set.Hope this helps!

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1608
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 14, 2019 10:03 AM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage   Email Jim Schrader   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul the adjusting screw you mentioned is this the adjusting screw circled in red I got the middle claw aligned with the center of the gate but how does one get in there to adjust it it looks unreachable. is this done after I get the chasis out?
 -

[ September 16, 2019, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Jim Schrader ]

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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