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Author Topic: The dreaded Eastman fade.
Paul Spinks
Master Film Handler

Posts: 453
From: Barking, Essex, UK
Registered: Mar 2006


 - posted March 09, 2006 07:55 PM      Profile for Paul Spinks   Email Paul Spinks   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi everyone,
I have followed earlier threads on this forum regarding the dreaded eastman fade which all of us have experienced to a greater or lesser degree. Whilst I do have prints which are "warming" and "going red", I have two films (Dr.Cyclops Universal 8 400ft and the full feature of Horror Express) which have no colour left and project a light sepiatone image. I use a blue filter which improves the image somewhat giving a darker tinted monochrome look. My question is does the deterioration stableize at this point or does the image completely disappear until the film becomes virtually clear?
Paul.

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 11, 2006 09:34 AM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
My question is does the deterioration stableize at this point or does the image completely disappear until the film becomes virtually clear?

What happens with any individual print depends on the emulsion (they changed constantly over the years) and processing. That said, I have a 16mm print that has just the lightest bit of yellow dye left and is virtually "clear".

John

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Andrew Wilson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 784
From: dundonald,belfast,co.antrim,northern ireland.
Registered: Jan 2006


 - posted March 11, 2006 12:06 PM      Profile for Andrew Wilson   Author's Homepage   Email Andrew Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
i too have dr.cyclops and it to has faded.however the sepia tone you speak off was always there;due according to universal8 at the time "condition of the master".mind you a lot of the other releases have faded due to the eastman colour curse.andy.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 11, 2006 05:23 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Cyan dyes were the most unstable of the three dyes used followed a lot of the time but at a very much slower rate by the yellow.
Once the cyan dye has gone you are left with the very red look and once the yellow starts going its only the magenta which is remaining.
John is right when he says that it depends on the film stock. The way some of the early Eastman and Eastman SP is fading seems to suggest to me that they were making changes to the emulsions on the fly. There are very late batches of SP that seem to be very stable and that suggests that they in fact cracked the problem and then relaunched the product under a new name...LPP.
Why do I think this well as some of you know I worked for a Photographic Film manufacturer in the UK who also did exactly that, made changes on the fly followed by a relaunch.
I have noticed that early Fuji prints are also starting to fade but its the yellow which seems to be going first but fortunately at a very slow rate. What you will see is some early Fuji's looking a little on the blue side. [Frown]
I will say however that it looks like Fuji had it cracked long before Kodak did.
Agfa like Ilford used a different dye technology to Kodak and its a shame they didnt take a leaf out of their books as Ilford and Agfa film is still as good today as when it was first produced.

Ilford didnt produce much movie print film but did produce camera film and some early super 8 film for Boots in the UK and they are still looking as good today as when I shot them some 25 yrs ago. We also know that Agfa film from way before the early 80's still looks superb. [Smile]

One thing in Kodak's defense is that we tend to forget that all this early film was originally designed for the Release print cinema circuit etc where it would be used for so many months and then binned. I dont think they thought that we collectors would still be trying to project those prints 30 - 40yrs later.

One other thing to bear in mind is that the way we store our prints will also effect the way they fade. High temps and humidity are a killer.

I have some film that was treated with 222 film cleaner and I swear these have faded quicker than prints without it. [Frown]

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Andrew Wilson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 784
From: dundonald,belfast,co.antrim,northern ireland.
Registered: Jan 2006


 - posted March 11, 2006 08:43 PM      Profile for Andrew Wilson   Author's Homepage   Email Andrew Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
i was never to keen on 2.22 film cleaner either kevin.it didnt do my films any good i had at that time.andy.

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted March 12, 2006 10:15 AM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I have noticed that early Fuji prints are also starting to fade but its the yellow which seems to be going first but fortunately at a very slow rate. What you will see is some early Fuji's looking a little on the blue side.
That one really caught my attention. My print of 7TH VOYAGE OF SINBAD has nice, rich colors but is definitely on the bluish side. I've suspected up to now that it was Agfacolor (I'm pretty positive it's the Derann print, though), but could I actually have a Fujicolor print here? Did Derann ever use Fuji stock?

--------------------
Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 13, 2006 04:08 AM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This was my question and I posted before but no answer.

So...if that the result we have now for our old films printed on Kodak and referring to other stocks as Kevin has mentioned (which are better), WHY Kodak is number one now in terms of photographic films? Why not Fuji or AGFA or Ilford??

cheers

--------------------
Winbert

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 13, 2006 07:28 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Who says they are. Some now think that the number one for colour film is Fuji.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 13, 2006 08:19 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I too have suspicions that films I treated with 2.22 have faded far quicker than anything else. In fact, of all the films I've owned new from the late 70's/early 80's I don't know of anything other than 2.22 treated films which have faded.

I still have a can of 2.22 around. Anyone want to offer me anything for it? [Wink]

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 13, 2006 08:30 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I shoot in Super 8 and I just received my first roll of Single 8 Fuji Color film back from the lab. The Fuji colors are superior to Kodachrome 40 in every way. Nicer saturation and contrast. The Fuji film in my camera makes Kodachrome look almost black and white. It is that rich.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 13, 2006 09:37 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Alan,
Where do you purchase Fuji single 8 in the USA, and where do you get it processed?

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 13, 2006 11:39 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Paul,

Here is a link:

http://www.single8film.com/index.html

Also if you want to order direct from Japan here is this link:
http://film.club.ne.jp/english/eng_single8_film2003.htm

The film there breaks down to $20 roll including processing.

I have not ordered from Japan yet but the next time I will. The website for Single 8 Film is run by Kent. I unfortunately got stuck during the holiday madness, sent in my Single 8 film near the end of October..received it in February!!! Kent told me the turnaround for processing is usually 6 weeks. But the cool thing is that Fuji gives you the option of striping the film with mag stripe so you can add sound later. I took that option but I haven't done any recording yet.
The turnaround time was really high but the outcome was worth it. The Fuji film captured the orange and the browns of Fall perfectly with very little grain. I was stunned when I saw the footage. For Black and White though..can't beat a Leicina Special with TRI-X Black and White film.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted March 13, 2006 04:02 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank's Alan! Sounds great, particularly being able to get processing with twin mag tracks for only $4.00 extra! Now to get me a single 8 camera! [Smile]

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted March 16, 2006 04:44 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ahhh, Eastman fade. Storing them in a freezer or simply in a refridgerator is an excellent way of keeping the color fresh(with the proper selica gel packs in the freezer bags to keep moisture from your prints). However, I am going to start some experiments on some useless pink prints that I have in a photo lab to see if i can stop Eastman fade, as i have a beautiful print of "Gorky Park" (a 1983 optical sound print that is notorious for fade as it appears most prints of it were on the lowest grade Eastman produced!), which is sadly colorful but going pinky, which is not a good thing when most of the film takes place in winter!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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David Kilderry
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 963
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted March 17, 2006 03:56 PM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage   Email David Kilderry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are so many variables with print fade that it is often difficult to nail down how storage conditions will change a "subject to fade" print.

A few things that have been learnt from some of the big brother formats of 35mm and 70mm:

Large temperature range seems to bring on fade more than high storage temperature alone.

The quality of the processing can be a large variable also. (Speed, freshness of chemicals, drying)

Vinegar Syndrome is begining to overtake colour fade as the number one enemy of film collectors.

Twenty years ago, who would have thought that my silent era nitrate would be outlasting my 1960's era safety film? I recently junked a 70mm print so badly affected by vinegar syndrome it was totally shrunken and breaking down.

Vinegar Syndrome can develop radidly if film is not allowed to breath (get it out of sealed cans!), is stored on steel spools (plastic spools or on cores and cardboard flats are best)and the worst affected prints seem to be prints with magnetic tracks.

How is your 8mm/Super 8? We have some advantages in that most 8mm has been sold and stored in breathable cardboard containers and mostly on plastic spools.

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted March 18, 2006 10:57 AM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd like to know how and why reels made of metal/steel promote vinegar syndrome, and what kind of effect magnetic soundtracks have on it as well...

--------------------
Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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David Kilderry
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 963
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted March 19, 2006 07:13 PM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage   Email David Kilderry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jan, it is believed that the magnetic track applicator may be a trigger for accelerating the onset of vinegar syndrome. I can't recall why metal spools are worse, but there is plenty of research avilable on the web from very creditable sources such as The American Cinematographer and Kodak themselves.

One thing that seems certain is that most cleaning or scratch removal chemical rejuvenation processes seem to accelerate the onset of VS. I have lost both 35mm optical, 70mm mag and 16mm prints to VS.

Keep your films at a constant low temperature, make sure they can breathe and invest in some molecular sieves to absorb the odurs as soon as they are released.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted March 22, 2006 11:43 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the good tip on not necessarily storing in metal cannisters, as I have a few stored just such.

Of course, once Eastman fade has begun, it's really only a matter of time. But that time can be stalled for quite awhile.

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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David Kilderry
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 963
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Feb 2006


 - posted April 11, 2006 11:26 PM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage   Email David Kilderry   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just read a series of three excellent articles on Eastman colour fade in Boxoffice magazine.........from April 1980! It quotes the SMPTE and other publications writing about it a decade earlier.

All the Super 8 manufacturers would have certainly been aware of the problem as most were either directly linked or associated with the Studios. The labs would certainly have been aware. The Boxoffice article quotes Steven Spielberg and how 35mm prints of Jaws had faded in 5 years on Eastman stock!

Commercial 35mm cinema has moved on since the Eastman LPP (low fade)introduction in 1983, unfortunatly it leaves us film collectors stuck with mostly Eastman stock from the late 1950's - early 1980's. For 8mm and 16mm collecting this was the glory period and it coincided with unstable colour film.

The next few years will really show distict patterns as far as other stocks are concerned: Agfa, Fuji, treated films: 2.22, Filmrenew etc storage methods: spools, cans and of course conditions: humidity, temperature etc.

I have nitrate film that has outlasted prints 50 years newer!

David

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted April 12, 2006 12:09 AM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Someday far, far in the future, when aliens visit a scorched, lifeless Earth and discover the last remains of an advanced civilization once known as the Humans, their science news publications will make note of the Greek tragedy that was known as... Eastman film during the height of 8mm/16mm popularity.

Sigh. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted April 12, 2006 07:27 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A tragedy indeed. But on the positive side, NONE of my prints on AGFA stock show any sign of fading at all, so I think these color prints will be around for a long long time. And of course all the thousands of prints made on black and white stock will essentially last forever.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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