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Author Topic: Keystone K-112 image issue
Jim Karl
Junior
Posts: 22
From: Eldersburg, MD, USA
Registered: Jun 2016


 - posted August 16, 2017 04:48 PM      Profile for Jim Karl   Email Jim Karl   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Picked this projector up recently. Threads 8mm film just fine but the image is "out of sync" as best I can describe it. No single clear frame just a blur of frames (unless I go to still mode) I see no obvious adjustment to use and don't have a user manual for any additional trouble shooting. Thoughts?

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Will Trenfield
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 506
From: Shrewsbury, Shropshire, UK
Registered: Mar 2016


 - posted August 16, 2017 07:06 PM      Profile for Will Trenfield   Email Will Trenfield   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Check the claw, maybe. There could be a ball of fluff on it.

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Jim Karl
Junior
Posts: 22
From: Eldersburg, MD, USA
Registered: Jun 2016


 - posted August 16, 2017 07:11 PM      Profile for Jim Karl   Email Jim Karl   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you are referring to the double claw that contacts the film near the aperture, it is and grabbing fine and clean (externally anyway, there are custom tamper screw head that prevent me from looking inside)

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Bryan Chernick
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Bothell, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2010


 - posted August 16, 2017 11:13 PM      Profile for Bryan Chernick   Email Bryan Chernick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is it loosing the bottom loop. It sounds like it could be pulling the film through.

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Jim Karl
Junior
Posts: 22
From: Eldersburg, MD, USA
Registered: Jun 2016


 - posted August 16, 2017 11:15 PM      Profile for Jim Karl   Email Jim Karl   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How to fix?

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Bryan Chernick
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Bothell, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2010


 - posted August 17, 2017 11:48 AM      Profile for Bryan Chernick   Email Bryan Chernick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That depends on what is causing it. I'm not familiar with that machine but looking at photos it looks like an auto feed machine. If the auto feed is not forming a proper loop on the bottom where it comes out of the film gate that may cause your problem. It can make the film tight against a roller or whatever it has before it gets to the lower cog it will drag the film through. Sometimes a bad splice will cause the film to get caught in the gate and you will loose the bottom loop.

When the claw moves the film down one frame at a time the film stops moving for a fraction of a second when the shutter is open. At the same time the shutter is open the claw is moving back up to catch the next sprocket hole to move to the next frame. What it sounds like it is doing on your projector is the lower cog is pulling the film through the gate while the shutter is open and the claw is disengaged from the film to move up to catch the next frame. That's why you see a blur of an image, the film is not sitting still while the shutter is open. That's why there needs to be a loop at the bottom between the gate and the lower cog so that cog doesn't just drag the film through.

Sorry I can't tell you exactly how to fix that machine but one thing you can do is try taking the piece off that covers the bottom loop to see what is going on in there. If you can share a photo of what it looks like that may help us figure it out.

While you are in there it would be a good idea to clean the film path. I use a cotton swab and rubbing alcohol to clean everything the film comes in contact with. I also use 100% pure bees wax to lubricate the film path. Wipe a light amount on then wipe off all the excess.

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Jim Karl
Junior
Posts: 22
From: Eldersburg, MD, USA
Registered: Jun 2016


 - posted August 17, 2017 01:00 PM      Profile for Jim Karl   Email Jim Karl   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The film path and claw had been cleaned prior to the post. The claw extends fine and I can feel through the sprocket of the film. When opening the housing you are correct there is not a good bottom loop present. I have a bunch of pictures of everything but honestly the pic upload process here is a real PITA with size restrictions etc. and I don't have the patience to manually preprocess all of them. but can post if really needed. What I DID find new just now with the manual knob feed control is that the claw, while extending and retracting is NOT going down/up. It is staying stationary at the top of the track. I'm pretty sure that is the issue. Could be as simple a dried grease inside but it has a weird screw head to access the internals. see pic for that. Anyone know what tool I would need for that? I need to to be cheap to warrant opening it up, in the event there is something further actually broken. I also don't have a service manual for this. Dos anyone have a pdf to lend?

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Bryan Chernick
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Bothell, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2010


 - posted August 17, 2017 01:27 PM      Profile for Bryan Chernick   Email Bryan Chernick   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The claw not pulling the film down would definitely cause you to loose the bottom loop. There could be a spring broken or missing or something else stuck or not moving correctly. I know you can find all different types of specialty tools online but I have never seen that screw head.

There is a manual section of this forum but I don't see your manual on the list.

Manuals

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted August 17, 2017 03:30 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jim...I did a Google search for Y Shaped Screwdriver...Here is one of the results:

https://www.amazon.co m/Tri-wing-Triangle-Screwdriver-Macbook-Battery/dp/B00QNW968G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1503001577&sr=8-1&keywords=y+shaped+screwdriver

Here's another:
https://www.aliexpress.com/cheap/cheap-y-shaped-screwdriver.html

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Jim Karl
Junior
Posts: 22
From: Eldersburg, MD, USA
Registered: Jun 2016


 - posted August 17, 2017 04:07 PM      Profile for Jim Karl   Email Jim Karl   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Janice - thanks but I think these are the opposite. It's not like a 4 sided Phillips head but with only 3 side (like those you show). It's more like a 3 PRONG screwdriver with 3 points that stick out (the center of the tip would be recessed). I've seen similar in the electronics industry - it's a form of anti tamper screw. I'll just have to search until I can find a tip like that but I do appreciate the help!

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted August 17, 2017 10:45 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I see that now Jim. I hope it's not a Kodak proprietary custom tool. I wonder what's inside that Kodak didn't want you to get to easily [Smile]

Maybe you could modify a Y driver bit by drilling a hole in the center.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Jim Karl
Junior
Posts: 22
From: Eldersburg, MD, USA
Registered: Jun 2016


 - posted August 17, 2017 10:54 PM      Profile for Jim Karl   Email Jim Karl   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've found a couple now, just making sure I can get the lowest possible price since this is a one time use....
You mention some other Keystone service manuals where available, but not this model. What do you think would be the closest one to use for detailing the claw mechanism? I would imagine some models share similar assemblies.

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted August 17, 2017 11:21 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've only seen user manuals for Keystone projectors, but these model numbers are similar in design to the K112:

K100
K110
K950

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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