8mm Forum: Super8 Rerecording

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Topic: Super8 Rerecording

Sonny Young
Junior
Posts: 15
From: Astoria, NY, USA
Registered: Nov 2003

posted May 04, 2004 02:07 PM

I was reading the thread on Super8 comparisons to other sources for the purpose of rerecording sound. I'm not posting this there to keep that thread clean as Ricky Daniels requested. Anyway, my comment is this-- I can't believe that rerecording sound actually works with any precision because all this equipment uses wild, non-crystal sync motors. I can detect when film is only a few frames out of sync and it drives me nuts. Don't you get sync drift? Doesn't the film get scratched when you roll back and forth? How long does a feature take? Don't you get tired of the film after this process? Has anyone screwed up a film, as it seems so easy to do? I am really fascinated with this whole process and would like to hear about it. I don't dare try it myself; I don't think I would have the patience.

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Mike Peckham
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1461
From: West Sussex, UK.
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 04, 2004 02:53 PM

Sonny

I haven't tried it myself, though having bought one of Pedros units I am working up to it [Cool]

. What I can say though is that I have seen a couple of Kevins examples of re-recording and the results are stunning!

I understand that Kev' had about two or three goes at getting Flash Gordon to start at the right point but once done it stayed in sync right the way through the 600ft reel, the sync really is spot on and the sound quality from the stripe is amazing. I wouldn't have thought it possible.

It's certainly acheivable but it requires courage to make that first brave move [Wink]

.

Mike

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Auntie Em must have stopped wondering where I am by now...

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 04, 2004 03:36 PM

Sonny,
Mike is right it took me about 3 attempts to get reel one of Flash Gordon right but then there is no lip sync to look at for about the first 5 mins or so. The other reels were a doddle. When Chris Quinn visited me a few weeks ago I showed him with a reel of the Jungle Book feature, which he has bad sound on, how I could hit the sync every time we tried it.
I set the GS up in the record mode on the first frame. Then I start the DVD or VHS Hi Fi tape a little in front of the start point. When I get to the correct point on the DVD etc I then set the GS off in forward projection from the still/pause position. It seems to work ok every time. Providing the film and DVD have the same cut it's a synch to keep 600ft lengths in sync. [Smile]

I have tended to do my films as supplied ie on 400 or 600ft spools as its more manageable and means you dont have problems round the reel joins in terms of lost frames etc.
The key to all this is patience. You will find a method which works well for you and your setup.
Yes it is as good as crystal sync. The GS is crystal locked at 25 FPS and the machines are capable of doing this because of the feedback loop which is built into the Elmo circuitry for motor control. The 25 FPS sync siganl which your DVD/TV prog sits on is about as accurate as it can be. If it wasnt you would get all sorts of problems such as picture rolling and colour shifts. Dont worry about that aspect of it all as its about as good as you can get.
It works and it works jolly well. Take the plunge it can be very rewarding when you play that feature film back on super 8 in great sounding stereo!!!! [Smile]

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Chris Quinn
Master Film Handler

Posts: 372
From: England, Bedfordshire.
Registered: Nov 2003

posted May 04, 2004 03:41 PM

Hi Sonny,
The Pedro unit combined with the GS1200 does work as Mike has said and as long as you start the recording of at the right point, it will stay in sync, as long as the film's editing is true to the audio source
I have recently bought a second hand copy of Jungle Book only to find that the sound on the balance stripe is awful, so i will be giving this a go as soon as i collect my GS1200 from Mr Elmo.
I would also say that the quality of the new stereo sound tracks recorded by Kev, were absolutely fantastic making the process well worth the effort.

Chris.

Kev you beat me to it by seconds.

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The other half thinks i'm up to something. Shes right of course.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 04, 2004 03:42 PM

Ohh Guys dont!!! Blush!!!!!!!!!!

Kev [Smile]

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 04, 2004 07:01 PM

Sonny,
You ask if you get tired of the film after the re-recording process. On the contrary, the High Fidelity stereo adds so much to the enjoyment and the impact of the film, particularly for musical and action films. As far as scratching the film, yes you have to be meticulous about ensuring a pristine condition of the entire film path in the projector- but this should be normal practice anyway if you do not wan't to scratch your films. Also use only a high quality projector such as Elmo or Eumig, which normally will not scratch the film. Practice re-recording on a couple of old 400ft reels- you will never again be satisfied with the original mono soundtracks!

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 05, 2004 02:25 AM

Ok. Here is my question for you techies out there. If I buy a multi region DVD player and then purchase a PAL DVD and play it on its built in screen (Portable), will it play back at 25 fps? Does it only convert to 29.97 FPS once I hook it up to a NTSC tv?
Trying to find a way to sync a soundtrack to Super 8 using a PAL DVD source!

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Sonny Young
Junior
Posts: 15
From: Astoria, NY, USA
Registered: Nov 2003

posted May 05, 2004 10:26 AM

Thanks guys, I'm truly impressed.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 06, 2004 04:17 PM

Alan, Here in the UK our TV have or at least new ones have, the ability to play back a true NTSC signal on our PAL TV's. If the TV cant do this then most DVD players can output what is called PAL 60. This converts the NTSC ot PAL but plays back at 30 FPS.
Belive it or not the diff between PAL and NTSC is not great. PAL is based on the NTSC tv system but running at 25FPS. Where you guys dont have any automatic colour control built into your system (hence the hue control) the PAL system has information built into the signal to maintain accurate colour fidelity automatically. This is achieved by using a comparative system on every other tv line of information which is where PAL gets it's name from. " Phase Alternate Line"
Based on this reasoning I would think that providing the frequency diff can be sorted then your sets would prob play back a PAL DVD. It will probably play back at the correct 25FPS as the sync signal will come from the DVD but not forgetting we have 625 lines where you have only 525. You'll be amazed at how well modern day TV's can cope with all these variations except for the French Secam system which is altogether a differnt kettle of fish.
I'll send you one if you want to try it?

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 07, 2004 01:20 AM

Hence, NTSC = Never The Same Colour twice.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 07, 2004 06:31 AM

Ok- so basically if I get a DVD player that can play PAL DVD's, then it will play back at 25 fps and it is up to my TV to be able to play back the picture. However if I get a DVD that <i>converts</i> PAL to NTSC, then the machine will convert the FPS rate as well producing 30 fps which is what i dont want. Yes?

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