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Author Topic: Anyone Experience VS On 8MM?
Dan Lail
Film God

Posts: 2110
From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted February 20, 2005 02:29 PM      Profile for Dan Lail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have 8mm guage fims dating back to the 1950s and none have vinegar syndrome. My wife has a few standard 8mm guage from the the 1960s that have a pungent order, but I think that might be coming from the grey rubber Kodak 3 inch reels. Is it the film or the reels?
Has anyone experienced VS on their 8mm films(super 8 also)? [Confused]

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted February 20, 2005 03:18 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Yup I've seen it. It was always acetate stock stored in those tin reel containers too since that prevented it from breathing. Unfortunately 8mm is so small of a gauge, that once VS starts, it's pretty much over immediately.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted February 20, 2005 04:42 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
I have to say that I have never seen it on 8mm but have seen it on 16mm. Brads right, once it starts its a bin job really.
I keep all my films where possible in card boxes especially any B/W acetate films. For super 8 I buy the white card boxes which Derann sell. They do them in 200, 400, 600 and 1200ft sizes and also the 4 x 600 feature boxes. This in my opinion helps the film base to breathe.

Kev [Smile]

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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John Sadler
Junior
Posts: 6
From: Bedfordshire
Registered: Mar 2008

- posted March 13, 2008 08:12 PM      Profile for John Sadler   Author's Homepage   Email John Sadler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think I have VS on some old colour standard 8 Kodak film (stock date of 1939), stored on 200ft capacity metal reels and tins. It smells suspect one of the films is bleaching of colour image and turned pink, where as the others reels seem ok (no distortion/pink washed out image). How quick will VS deteriorate film? Can I stop it? Can I be sure I have VS? I understand by correctly freezing the film it will slow this process down. What ultimately happens to a film with VS?
How easily can VS spread to good film, for example running it through the same projector?
Sorry for all the questions [Wink]

Kind rgds,
John.

Hmmm just read the following article
http://www.capital.net/com/jaytp/VINEGAR.HTM
now that has started me getting worried about lubricating film. How do I know what type of film base I have?
Well that's enough to send me off to sleep [Big Grin]

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David Kilderry
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 963
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Feb 2006

- posted March 14, 2008 12:45 AM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, 8mm in sealed tins and Super 8 in tins and plastic clam shells.

If they can't breath, VS will start sooner or later. Cardboard is best or simply nothing so the reels can breath. The thinking has totall reversed in recent years; dust is far less of a problem compared to VS.

David

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David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1072
From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted March 14, 2008 11:08 AM      Profile for David Pannell   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mmmmm,

Should we then discard our metal and plastic cans, or drill holes in them, or store our films in cardboard boxes, or in nothing at all?

I too just read the link provided by John Sadler, and the response by David Kilderry. Quite concerning.

What's best? Seems a pity to chuck out all those cans, but if it's best for the films, and surely this is what it's all about, I for one will have to re-think my storage shelving.

--------------------
Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

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John Sadler
Junior
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From: Bedfordshire
Registered: Mar 2008

- posted March 14, 2008 12:30 PM      Profile for John Sadler   Author's Homepage   Email John Sadler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Difficult to say Dave,
But some of my film is really old. I have some b/w standard 8 from 1933 that is in tins and also smells a bit VS'ie. I did not think b/w was as vulnerable as colour but I guess it's all to do with the acetate base/storage rather than the emulsion.
But point to be made this is really old stuff and they believe more than 50% of film of this age has already been binned so guess I should think myself lucky and get it transferred.
Kind rgds,
John.

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 14, 2008 01:00 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
will leaving films out in the open contaminate others that are near by?

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Joe Taffis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1592
From: United States
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 14, 2008 02:12 PM      Profile for Joe Taffis   Email Joe Taffis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As long as plastic film cans, cases and vinyl clamshell cases aren't sealed to make them airtight, a little air does get in there so there should be no problem. The nice thing about the plastic Bonum brand cases is that a lot of them have ventilation holes already in them. These can be closed to keep dust, etc. out during transport or shipping. I think the conditions under which films are stored are equally important as what they're kept in. I've only seen VS in very old 16mm reels that were stored in metal cans [Smile]

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Joe Taffis

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007

- posted March 14, 2008 06:30 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Quite unintentionally I've been gaining some experience with handling and storing VS prints.

John's link is the most complete information I've seen on it in one place and is extremely valuable. And disturbing.

The only pre-1940s R8mm reel that I have or have handled that isn't stricken with vinegar is one that is still in its original cardboard box. It can breathe! All other VS examples, and I have it in R8, 16, 35, and even a snip of 70mm, are all due to either sealed metal cans, elevated temperatures, or both.

I store my VS prints in a separate room.

Though most of them still live in metal tins, airing the films out on an unnaturally dry day (which we have here in California from time to time), then re-packing them with a fresh molecular sieve or two, definitely suspends active VS and slows it down. This can add years to stricken but still playable prints.

Once the films are too shrunken to go through a projector, it is still possible to make gorgeous video transfers if a scanning-type transfer is done, as opposed to a normal projector apparatus. Thus, a Rank Cintel, and possibly even Roger Evan's NON-projector-based machines, can handle the job.

Urbanski Film is where I originally bought molecular sieves because he'll sell small quantities. Or you can order full tins directly from Kodak.

Sadly, all good things must come to an end. Who would've thought that the life of a film would come to this?

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David Kilderry
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 963
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Feb 2006

- posted March 15, 2008 03:44 AM      Profile for David Kilderry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have removed every film I have from plastic or metal cans and store the films in clam shells partly open. I also try and run or wind my films once per year. (I have hundreds)

The air-conditioning also helps for Australia's hot weather. It has been over 104 fahrenheit (40 celcius) here three days this week and we are in Autumn!

See the heat rise from the race track at tomorrows F1 Melbourne GP!

David

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

- posted March 15, 2008 06:59 AM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thats the problem with std 8 much of it went into those quite well sealed metal tins. I have had VS 2or 3 times on std 8, 2 times on 16mm at least but all not too far. One 8mm though did really go for it so I just adopeted a any VS and in the bin policy.
Most super 8 ended up in card thankfully however just remebered I had a sp acetate 400 digest of Ivanhoe in a clamshell was starting to go and very whiffey indeed.
Best Mark.

[ March 16, 2008, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Mark Todd ]

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

- posted March 15, 2008 10:16 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a cherished print of "Birth Of A Nation" standard 8mm sound, and it has vinegar syndrome, but i have also been informeds that this may also be because of the glues that hold the mag soundtrack to the film. I believe I heard this on this forum, but I can't be sure.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007

- posted March 15, 2008 11:20 AM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd bet you'd heard right, Osi. In John's link you'll find that chemical washes used for Technicolor IB and some magnetic sound applications have been known to increase the acidity of the film base. So that makes sense.

Wow, I think I'm going to go get cardboard boxes for my Super 8 camera originals and get rid of all the metal cans. I have no VS in Super 8, but the years are ticking by quickly.

Has anyone ever come up with a film wash that is deliberately pHed alkaline? Would it destroy the film? Would it make any difference in impeding acetate breakdown?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 525
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 16, 2008 01:02 AM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Should we then discard our metal and plastic cans, or drill holes in them, or store our films in cardboard boxes, or in nothing at all?
By all means get rid of your metal cans. They are the best way to kick-start VS in your acetate films. I always stored my 8mm films in reel to reel boxes (similar to what Derann ships their films in, but much sturdier). I don't know where any of those are available these days, but I'll bet somewhere on the internet they can be picked up for pennies.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

- posted March 16, 2008 01:52 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You guys reminded me to take those reels of "Birth Of A Nation" out of the metal cans.

I feel pretty stupid. I kn ew about this awhile back and I forgot to take them out of those damned cans!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

- posted March 16, 2008 02:17 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Why not check this out:

http://members.optushome.com.au/picturepalace/Vinegar%20Syndrome.html

I'm using this plasticiser at the moment to relieve warpage on a print.

-Mike

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 525
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 16, 2008 04:05 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
Please post your findings on that product. I spoke with the late John Pytlak of Kodak regarding that product and he said that Kodak has tested it and that it, nor VitaFilm did as it claimed. However any product that actually works to help extend the life of a print is worth investing a few bucks in, so please let us know if you can get more usable life out of your print with it.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

- posted March 17, 2008 03:30 AM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I sure will. I must emphasise though that my print does not have VS. Its just got some warpage.

-Mike

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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007

- posted March 18, 2008 04:18 PM      Profile for Bill Brandenstein   Email Bill Brandenstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If anyone has a recommendation for a company who can supply us with boxes, please post. I am working on this, but it seems that as much media stuff gets sold in the Los Angeles area, there no longer an easy source. Five years ago or less it would have been effortless. Now fine businesses are going under at an alarming rate as technology changes -- if you're in the audio world at all, you know that the only US manufacturers of magnetic tape are now both gone (3M, then more recently Ampex/Quantegy). Demand for open reel boxes has fallen drastically.

In the long run, we may find that finding a manufacturing source will be necessary.

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 20, 2008 08:27 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't have a source off hand, but you need to find acid free archival storage boxes. These are made for libaries and storage of photographic prints. The sizes might not be exactly what you want, but once you find a source, they can manufacture to your specifications.

I think J&R/Moviola is still around, whether they handle film type supplies anymore is another question. Another source is Plastic Reel and Core and Comprehensive Service. Both of the latter are east coast New York/New Jersey? companies.

John

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

- posted March 20, 2008 10:48 PM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
While you are knocking about John whats the syndrome similar to vinegar syndrome you get on polyester, had that myself on a 200 feet estar super 8 short from the late 70`s I bought new that was still sealed about 5 years ago.
There was an area of goo that was on the outside of the film went down through the film directly underneath it if you will through each layer, I rolled everso much out but as it kept progressing so just rewound it and binned it. It wasn`t warping but the degeneration of the film was quite serious just in that area/patch going down, maybe just the emulsion possibly??? but it was odd how it worked its way down through the film.
Also you can get quite a bit of warp thats in there to stay once in as well on new printed poly/estar I think that is caused by being far too tight wound not long after its printed that stops it gassing off and breathing so the stock so it warps and fixes like that but its usually still OK ot run on unfussy machines. When you see it , it feels very sort of hard siezed with the look of thumb prints in to it and through it. As you run the film off its sort of sticks and you can hear it peeling away if you will and it can cause goings on in the gate unless lubed especialy on that first green run. Best Mark.

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Joe Caruso
Film God

Posts: 4105
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 21, 2008 06:55 AM      Profile for Joe Caruso     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've said it a hundred times through the years, the original boxes are the way to go. Cans hold the air inside, coupled with the reel and film creates a chemical reaction (plastic dovetailed with acetate), if it's indeed VS, well, we know what we all have to do. Save your cans by all means, but immeadiately invest in cardboard boxes, white-hinged sort. I've had films last over twenty years with no fade nor smell - Shorty

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted March 21, 2008 05:23 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark,
Haven't seen that problem myself. The film base seems to be stable but does disform rather than break. The emulsion "sticking" could be from a print wound up before it was dry or some type of surface treatment. Super8 prints that went into carts were doused with all sorts of "witches brews". Another possibility would be a bad slitter. Most super8 was printed four up on 35mm and then split out and if the slitter was off you'd get a wavy edge.

The other problem with poly was a powder/edge wear that then deposited itself on the emulsion.

Most likely the print had been "preserved" with some chemical that lead to that problem. Rejunvenation, scratch removeal and all other sorts of "fixes" can lead to problems many many years later. Since the print was new and sealed, this was something that was applied before it left the lab. After many years of storage under unknown temp and humidity it failed.

Just a guess.

John

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David Michael Leugers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 264
From: Fairfield, OH, USA
Registered: Feb 2004

- posted March 23, 2008 11:22 PM      Profile for David Michael Leugers   Email David Michael Leugers   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have seen it on one print, it is a Charlie Chaplin feature "City Lights" in R-8mm. I treated it immediately by total immersion (using steel reels) in Vitafilm for a month. After 4 years, the film is still projectable even though it still has the VS smell, but not as strong as before treatment. Don't know how long it will last, I keep it away from all the other films I have even though I've read where VS is not contagious... who'd want to take the risk?

David M. Leugers

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Live Free or Die

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