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Topic: Colour Fade

Bruce Rawlings
Junior
Posts: 8
From: Cardiff , South Wales
Registered: Mar 2005

posted January 06, 2007 02:58 PM

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After at least 15 years I am returning to the 8mm fold. My collection has not been viewed only stored. Have just run a few titles Born Free Cineavision print and 2 minute warning Universal print both have lost gone a little magenta is this normal? Have Derann's 3 Musketeers full feature - this seems to be perfect. I have a GS1200 with Scheider F1.0 lens and a Baur 610 both machines run perfectly after all this time.

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Dan Lail
Film God

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From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 06, 2007 03:41 PM

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Hi Bruce. Look along the perforated edge of the faded ones. You may need a magnifying glass. If it says Eastman it is probable going to fade. If it says LPP or Agfa it will have no fade unless it's Agfa before 1983. I am not an expert, but I think I'm close on this one.

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted January 06, 2007 04:40 PM

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Bruce,
Dan is correct about checking
for the code along the sprocket
side of the film.

The only problem is that the
magnetic stripe may interfere
with the code.

However,if you turn the film
over on the emulsion side and
check to see if the title
section of the film appears
raised, this would indicate
that it is on the type of
Eastman Stock which is not
low fade.

Michael

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted January 06, 2007 05:04 PM

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Dan's spot on. Beware the dreaded eastman fade!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 06, 2007 06:19 PM

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I keep seeing this one about Agfa film and the year 1983? Where did that come from? I'm sure that Agfa film has always held up better than the dreaded Eastman. Even Agfa 1S is very good for it's colour stability.
Agfa and Kodak have always used different dye technology and although the earlier Agfa film was not as fine grained as Kodak it was renowned for it better colour stability.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Michael De Angelis
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Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted January 06, 2007 11:39 PM

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Dan,

Hmmmm ? [Confused]

[Confused]

Kev's question is interesting.

Is the Agfa prior to '83
more aligned to Kodak SP stock ?
I don't have extensive knowledge
but do recall that the Agfa's
were pretty good to have in a Library.

Fuji's were good too, just as long
the Fuji's were not purple in color.
To my understanding the LPP's may last
at least 50 years, but
who's counting?

Michael

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David Kilderry
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Feb 2006

posted January 07, 2007 01:30 AM

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I have always known Agfa to be better than Eastman on all guages regardless of the year. Certaintly Eastman before 1983 is prone to fade, after 1983 and the introduction of LPP it has proven to be a very stable stock.

Eastman Kodak SP stock? Don't belive a word of it, it will fade just much as an original Eastman print from 1956.

My Kodachrome Super 8 and Std 8 home movies and Kodachrome 16mm documentaries are still absolutely brilliant, an excellent stock and one of the only ones comparable to technicolor.

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted January 07, 2007 07:01 AM

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Bruce Rawlings... Now thats a name I remember well. Welcome back to the world of film, even though I produce videos for a living.

Re fade. All colour films will fade but you can stall the fade by keep the films in a cool room. The only way to stop is to freeze the films.

Happy days.
Lee.

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Bruce Rawlings
Junior
Posts: 8
From: Cardiff , South Wales
Registered: Mar 2005

posted January 07, 2007 07:52 AM

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Thanks all for your comments. Will now go through my whole collection. I have been collecting since Derann were in the old post office in Dudley. Lee, I also supply video services having left the BBC back in 1994 having been a film editor and producer.

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Osi Osgood
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From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted January 07, 2007 11:31 AM

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Freezing the films is spot on, but be sure to give the films a good hour to thaw before viewing. Also, make sure to put some form of frost/moisture resistant material in with your freezer bags. I use selica gel packs and have had good success with them!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Steven Sigel
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Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 07, 2007 04:10 PM

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A couple of corrections:

Kodak SP fades to Brown or yellow rather than Red/pink, but it still fades. Some people find this more pleasing to look at. But it's not low-fade by any stretch of the imagination.

On AGFA stock:
I'm not aware of any major stability difference between 1S and 2S stock -- I believe that both still exist.

Older AGFA stock can fade, but for the most part it just gets a bit washed out - not red or pink. from the mid 1970s AGFA seems very stable. AGFA characteristics are NOT at all like SP.

Fuji:

Fuji from 1974 and earlier is nearly as bad as Eastman. 1975 onwards holds up quite well.

In all cases, after 1983, the stocks are theoretically all Low-fade. Although LPP is defintely the most stable of the lot.

Other stocks:
3m fades, but does tend to hold up better than Eastman.

And of course IB Tech and Kodachrome dont fade. But there's not much out there in 8mm or super 8 (other than a few Disney shorts in Standard 8 (I think) and some home movies).

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Osi Osgood
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From: Mountian Home, ID.
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posted January 07, 2007 05:31 PM

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Honestly, I think the better prints are found in the U.K. Compare, for instance, the old A.A.P. releases of the Warner Brother cartoons on standard 8mm. The american prints of the films (all varieties were released in slightly shortened versions, approx. 5 minutes long, on those smaller 150ft. reels)
were printed on Eastman stock and suffer terribly from fade. The very same prints of these films, manufactured in the U.K. were made on another film stock, which is much more stable! I have a print of one of these, "Hair Raising Hare", and there is almost no fade whatsoever! Same era, different film stock.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

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From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 07, 2007 06:21 PM

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I thought the magic year was 1982 when LPP was introduced. I have seen some very late SP which is still superb and believe that Kodak were making changes to the print film on the fly. Then came the relaunch and they called it LPP.

I have seen some really bad 3M stocks from Italy which go brown.

Agfa like Ilford were the only companies who used water soluble couplers (dyes) unlike Kodak etc who used oil dispersed couplers (dyes). I certainly remember from my research days at Ilford that Oil based were prone to being more unstable where the cyan was concerned followed by the yellow.
Ilford and Agfa exchanged quite a bit of technology back in those days and I certainly know that in ageing tests Agfa materials often beat Kodak for stability except for products such as Kodachrome but then we were able to beat them at that one with Cibachrome.

Back then our goal was to make sure that any fade happened in the three emulsion layers at the same rate hence Steves comments about Agfa 1S getting lighter. This seemed to be something Kodak were unable to do untill they changed the types of dyes they used and now we can all see the benefits.

As for putting films in the fridge, with the faded stocks you will just halt any further fade but with the newer and current stocks they will probably outlive most of us here on this forum with out being put in fridges.

Konica with their Print papers were saying that their dyes had a 100yr life! BTW Ilford sold it's colour technology to Konica in the mid 80's!

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Osi Osgood
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From: Mountian Home, ID.
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posted January 07, 2007 09:43 PM

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Great info Kevin. Question : If you get to a Kodak SP pri
nt before fade sets in, and you freeze em (as I do) is there the potential that you can keep fade from it on a permanent basis?

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Massachusetts
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posted January 07, 2007 11:59 PM

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Hi Kevin,

you are techincally correct - LPP stock was introduced late in 1982 -- but I've only seen a handful of '82 LPP prints (the majority of '82 prints are on Eastman, and are quite red) - I don't think it really took off until '83

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

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From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 08, 2007 01:00 AM

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Labs were probably still shifting older stock they had in.

Osi, yes in theory that would be the case. If they have not faded and you freeze them they will probably stay that way.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Adrian Winchester
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From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted January 08, 2007 10:12 AM

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One point about LPP is that didn't Kodak stop using the term at some point in the 1990s? If that's correct, there's no need to worry if you have a more recent print that just says Kodak Eastman, as it will still be LPP.

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Adrian Winchester

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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posted January 08, 2007 05:09 PM

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This business of freezing films to slow color fade sounds far fetched to me. I have no doubt that it slows color fade, but it is not hard to believe that you could do much more damage to the film due to shrinkage and condensation. And imagine having to wait hours to thaw the film out when you wan't to watch it! [Eek!]

[Eek!]

Totally impractical.
Films are meant to be shown not frozen away somewhere. When the film finally fades to the point where you no longer care to watch it, just be thankful for all the enjoyment you got out of it.

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Steven Sigel
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From: Massachusetts
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posted January 08, 2007 09:29 PM

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Adrian -- yes, you are correct. All Eastman stock after '83 is LPP regardless of how it is marked.

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Michael De Angelis
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From: USA
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posted January 08, 2007 09:51 PM

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Kev's point is well stated.
I had been told by a
good collector friend,
that he has an '82
LPP print, and the
stock is only marked
as Eastman. To my
understanding, both sides
of the stock are shiny
which indicates an Eastman
LPP Print.

Michael

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

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From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
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posted January 09, 2007 04:09 AM

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Hi all,

regarding the LPP marked as EASTMAN, it can bee seen here together with the discussion.

cheers,

--------------------
Winbert

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

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From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 09, 2007 04:31 AM

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Yes superb pics Winbert. Maybe it would be worth for those interested, going back to that thread and reading what was said before as we are duplicating what has been said many times before on this forum.

I still think there was a time Kodak was applying the new changes to the old stocks before relaunching the material as LPP.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Dan Lail
Film God

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From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
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posted January 10, 2007 01:58 PM

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Well, looks like I was close on the film stocks. The AGFA 1s and 2S I guess are low-fade even before 1983.

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Steven Sigel
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posted January 11, 2007 09:48 AM

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I've never noticed LPP stock to be "shiny".

In fact, if both sides of a print are very shiny, it was probably rejeventated (and is probably doomed to vinegar) - but that doesn't have anything to do with the color density...

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Michael De Angelis
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posted January 11, 2007 04:51 PM

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I have Lab fresh LPP prints that are
not rejuvenated and they are
as I have stated.

Michael

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Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
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