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Topic: Brown Stripe

Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 13, 2007 06:41 PM

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I have had a very frustrating time just recently with a couple of potential buyers.
As some of you know I have put some of my film up for sale here on the forum.
These guys will only purchase my Derann films if they have "Brown" Stripe.
I cant get the message across that Brown stripe is not necessarily the best.
I have done many re-records on Derann's newer Grey stripe with superb results.
We all know that there was a period when Derann's Brown stripe really sucked so please can you members put your experiences on here to allow others to see how Brown vs Grey stripe performs.

Kev.

[ April 14, 2007, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: Kevin Faulkner ]

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Louis Li
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 159
From: SG
Registered: Feb 2007

posted April 13, 2007 10:18 PM

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can you explain what is the brown and grey stripe?

i noticed that majority of people in this forum are collectors of films and projectors. and im kind of not. haha. so all these film terms are pretty confusing sometimes.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted April 13, 2007 10:45 PM

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Hey Kevin, what is your ebay name, I'd love to have a gander at your items.

On the question of sound stipes, I'm curious, are they both magnetic? I assume so.

The reason why I ask is, as an audiophile, I loved recording on magnetic tape, and I always found that chrome/metal tapes, (which were grey or black in colour) made much better quality
recordings than standard tape. Chrome or metal tapes had much higher end and better bottom overall. The average tape was good but had worse noise reduction qualities.

So, are these greyish/black soundstripe Chrome/metal tape? If so, it would have to be the highest standard sound you can get on Super 8 film.

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Joerg Niggemann
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 127
From: Germany
Registered: May 2006

posted April 14, 2007 01:38 AM

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My experience is that the newer grey stripe often gives less output amplitude, but better frequency response. In order to get best results on different stripe types, I always adjust the bias for both tracks before re-recording, like you do on a high quality tape deck.

The main problem I sometimes encountered with both grey and brown types was an uneven surface of the laminated stripe, causing a permanent low frequency "pop" noise.

In general, I agree that excellent results can be achieved with both stripe types.

Joerg

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 14, 2007 05:23 AM

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Osi, I have not put any films on eBay. Its just the list here on the forum that these guys have seen.

Yes I think the Grey Stripe is a Chrome Variant because you do get a slightly lower output and higher treble. The higher treble sounds better and you can obviously turn the record levels up to get a higher sound output.

I have also seen the problem of uneven coating which can cause the low frequency variations that Joerg talks of but I found that more with the brown stripe than with the grey. I have also heard people say the the brown stripe was quite abrasive but thats questionable.....I do know the brown stripe does leave quite a bit of mess in the guides and on the sound heads from certain films. I have not seen this at all with the new grey stripe currently in use.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005

posted April 14, 2007 09:50 AM

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Kevin,

sorry to read that asking the color of the stripe has caused such a frustrating time to you!

Infact I imagine that I am one of the two potential buyers you mention in your post and I also know who is the other (to whom I passed your list and who has contacted you!) ... Obvioulsly I re-record also his movies and hence the reason of his asking about the color of the stripe.

Below is the link to the post where I complain about the quality of my recording with grey stripe (I am not alone...) with SnowWHite and there I ended, in my answer to Gary, that I would have always asked the color before new buyings!

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002194;p=1

In my post I say I re-recorded TWO copies of SnowWhite (both very new and both with grey stripe) and I encountered the same problem. So I excluded that my own copy was faulted and didn't ask for any replacement to Gary.
Meanwhile I experienced bad recordings also with some new trailers with grey stripe.
Anyway, I don't want to comment about the quality of brown vs. grey stripe, I want only to say that my two PCOMs, where the capacitors had been replaced, always gave the same bad result with grey stripes.
Unfortunately I'm not able to adjust the BIAS (if this is the problem) and so I prefer to avoid to buy grey striped films in the future.

Again, sorry if I have bored you with my two or three emails...

Flavio

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Joe Caruso
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 14, 2007 10:08 AM

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Does that mean all my Blackhawk brown-striped films aren't quite up to snuff?

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 14, 2007 10:41 AM

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Flavio, Yes it is frustrating for me especially as I know I have don many re-records on Grey stripe with no problems. John Clancy heard my results on Knick Knack and that was with Grey Stripe. I think that Derann do get some variabilty between batches but I can also say that this was the case with the earlier brown stripe as well and to some extent that was worse. I have seen many prints where the brown stripe is so thin that you can see through it and I have even sent film back over the years where the stripe has dissapeared completely for a foot or so. The brown stripe was, on some films very lumpy causing other problems.

I still think that with Snow White you were probably unlucky and that it was a bad batch. My copy is on Agfa stock, has the brown stripe and is number 3 in the limited edition first run and sounds great but obviously in English.

The idea of putting this question on the forum was really to find out what other people have found using the different stripes that are about on the various films and what they have found on various machines.

We have to remember that the formulations that are used on these prints are designed to give the best results on high speed recording machines not our machines recording at 18 or 24FPS. If you were to say to Derann or any other dealer that you cant record on a particular stripe but the original recording was ok I think they would tell you where to get off or charge you to re-record the film again on their equipment.

It's all a very difficult area but I can only reiterate what I said earlier and that is that Brown does not mean the best....believe me.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Flavio Stabile
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005

posted April 14, 2007 11:38 AM

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quote:
It's all a very difficult area but I can only reiterate what I said earlier and that is that Brown does not mean the best....believe me.

I agree...but please, let me reiterate that my GS1200 does record in a better, better way the brown ones. And this doesn't mean the brown is better than grey, does it?

Flavio

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 14, 2007 12:08 PM

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I agree with you up to a point.

So why is my GS ok on both types Brown or Grey and your isnt?.....interesting. On the Grey the recordings are brighter than the brown which I prefer.

Anyway I'm now interested to find out what others have found?

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Jose Artiles
Master Film Handler

Posts: 357
From: Spain
Registered: Oct 2005

posted April 14, 2007 02:17 PM

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Hi everyone!:
i have alot of films from derann with the grey track and i must say that all of them sounds great once i re-record in spanish,I almost finish to re-record Master And Commander and the sound is great,clear and very good on the hig frecuency. [Smile]

[Smile]

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 14, 2007 02:40 PM

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I have had excellent re-recording results on both brown and grey stripe. I have also had very poor results on both brown and grey stripe. Sometimes I have had much better results on the balance track than the main track, - the opposite of what you would expect. Stripe quality from Derann seems quite variable. I suspect that it all comes down to the individual batch of iron oxide stripe mixture, how consistently it is made up and how homogeneous the mixture is, as well as how well it is laid down and bonded to the film. I suspect also that the best stripe ever was Kodak's own pre-striped film stock.

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 15, 2007 10:51 AM

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Kevin,
Are there other variables involved here? Are the stripes all dispersion or are some laminated?

Dispersion stripes varied widely by the batch and between companies. One outfit in California--since gone out of busines--that striped 35mm & 16mm and made full coat and 35mm 3-stripe for dialogue would mix up batches with Pizer oxide and then dope it with old audio tape and video tape.

The most consistent post stripes were by Fox and Magnacraft (division of Technicolor). These two did virtually all 35mm and 70mm magnetic stripe release prints and there were still problems with those from time to time. Way back I remember doing a feature at Todd-AO (Let the Good Times Roll) and a guy from Warners was re-sounding Camelot for a cut down re-release and they were having trouble re-recording the new track on the old release prints (it was a 70mm release).

Kodak also had some problems with their oxide when they were making audio tape. One reason they discontinued the line was due to inconsistent output. You could have a roll of 34A up on your machine and all at one the output would drop 20 db.

I guess the bottom line is that I think it's impossible to judge any stripe just by the appearance. While brown was the common color for many many years (from the Reeves Oxide product to the Agfa Laminated stuff) later product has been all over the map depending on who made it and on what day.

I am curious, however, if these are laminated stripes or dispersion. I would guess that the prints with scuff and flaking are dispersion and probably a mix which is breaking down. Also the "new" types of oxides as used on later cassettes and video tapes require changes in record eq and basis to make full use of the stripe. Perhaps the duplicator does this--and they should--but it would seem difficult to do at home without the proper test instruments.

John

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 15, 2007 06:03 PM

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John, Certainly all the stripe Derann have used is the dispersion dope (I think Derek called it that once). Some stuff from Germany was laminate but I think that is now the dispersion stuff as well.

I suspect that the brown stuff was probably made by Agfa or the raw ingredients were supplied by Agfa. The reason I say that is that it was about the time when Agfa folded that Derann suddenly went over to the Grey stuff.

Maybe Gary or Adrian can shed some light on this?

John you also right about the Bias etc needing to be adjusted for the absolute best results but I have found that on the GS with the bias oscillators capacitor changed and providing the bias hasn't been changed, it's a good average for both types of stripe. The grey stripe does tend to be a little brighter in the high frequencies but for me I prefer that and anyway the GS has treble controls which allow that to be compensated for on playback.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Dave Alligan
Film Handler

Posts: 47
From: Suffolk
Registered: Mar 2007

posted April 16, 2007 02:53 AM

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As you might be aware of I did a lot of recording in my time using my GS1200 and for me the brown stripe was the worse, sometimes it was like a ploughed field and no matter what you did you could never get a good recording, to me the laminate stripe was the best.
I used to have to change the bias alot (thanks to Bill Parsons and his mod on my GS1200, this does help believe me) but with the bias changed the recording on the brown stripe was no where near as what I would have liked it.
I cannot comment on the new grey stripe as i have had no experiance with that.

Dave

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted April 16, 2007 05:16 AM

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Kevin. I was just taking a few minutes to read this info on mag stripe on 8. Here are my little thoughts.

Over the years I have not experienced any real problems with commercially available super 8 or standard 8mm film stripe. In the main it has been of good quality apart from when Derann tooled up to do Paste striping and had problems getting hold of the correct mix oxide, and as we know it quickly wore off the film base. I did have a print from them at this time which had faulty paste striping new, but Derek recalled the new film from me and later replaced it which is still perfectly OK.

The more modern releases from Derann have a very dark Paste stripe applied which suggests metal bios to me as opposed to the more normal brownish type we are used to of old. Looking through the old reel to reel tapes I often transfer to CD for customers mag stripe of the 70’s - 80’s was mainly a lightish brown I found and did give quite a bit of fall out from the stripe itself. This can be born out if inspecting the sound head area after a heavy film show of more vintage films. On the whole though even old standard 8 films seem to have stood the test of time as a couple of years ago I re recorded a Sherlock Holmes film and it much improved the soundtrack, so the stripe even then is OK after all the years.

We will all know that laminate stripe increases surface to head contact as once applied it is thicker than paste stripe. This can lead us to experience a greater sound level upon playback, whereas paste stripe is much thinner so accurate sound head pressure is paramount. Low contact and the level will lower also. At least that is what I have found.

I do at present have one film which I am sending for over paste striping as the stripe is very well worn. EVT Magnetics offer this service, and providing the original base stripe is fairly firm it works well and a good recording can be remade after this. But beware as there is one film base that EVT’s paste stripe will not stick to and I remember years ago having a film striped and it just rubbed off with my finger.

Today I still laminate stripe all my own home produced films. Cresta here in the UK used to do all my movies and when phoning one time I was told the genuine Agfa F5 stripe was getting in short supply. It was at this point I ordered a massive quantity of F5 which I still hold on 600ft reels and this genuine stripe offers up absolutely perfect recordings every time. The stripe which was later slit from reel to reel tape was much thinner and no where near the quality of F5.

Well, that’s what I make of it all. Lets see what others have experienced..

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 16, 2007 05:31 AM

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Lee, I found that info about EVT very interesting. I have used EVT before and found there service extremely good but I didnt know they could "over stripe". Does this mean that a copy of Carry on Cleo I have where reel one has some stripe missing could be re-striped to allow me to record it again?

Kev.

PS how we doing with the Son?

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Lee Mannering
Film God

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From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted April 16, 2007 09:14 AM

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Yup. Give EVT a ring and tell him what you are after doing and I am sure he can help you. Sent you a couple of PM re Son..son.

Take care
Lee.

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James N. Savage 3
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From: Washington, DC
Registered: Jul 2003

posted April 19, 2007 06:21 AM

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Lee-

What is the type of film that you say EVT cannot stripe?

I have sent many different types of film to EVT, and, no problems with the striping.

James.

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Joerg Polzfusz
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From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
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posted April 19, 2007 06:48 AM

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AFAIK EVT can only stripe acetate-based filmstock = they can't polyester-based filmstock like the fujichrome-single8-material, the 3m-super8-films or some kodak/fuji-printstock.

Jörg

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