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Topic: General Newbie Questions - Sound, Smell

Matthias Reichl
Junior
Posts: 14
From: Mannheim, Germany
Registered: Jun 2007

posted July 12, 2007 11:03 AM

Hi.
I got a few questions again: I downloaded a data sheet from www.super8mm.eu (only a few days ago, now the page changed completely and the sheet pdf is gone... [Frown]

) to gather information about the films I have. Now my projector only got the cheap built-in speakers but I want to fill out the sheets completely and I was wondering - can I somehow SEE if a film is mono or stereo? Now what's with the "Tonspuren" (Audio.. tracks?)... what is meant, if someone asks you if a film got one or two "Tonspuren"? All the films that have audio I own, got one broader magnetic "stripe" on one side and a thinner one on the other, next to the perforation. Does this mean it got two tracks? Because if films with more than one language tracks exist, there has to be either a way to switch between these two, or how does it work? So can I see what "properties" the audio track has, without beeing able to hear a better quality than radio playback through a telephone? [Wink]

And now: smell.
The sheet got a checkbox for whether a film got "Essiggeruch" / smells like vinegar(?) or not. I thought this to sound rather funny, until I got a film that actually DOES smell like vinegar. Why/what is this?

Next: material.
Can I somehow see which material the film is made of? It says here Acetat or Polyester. Neither the packages of the films nor any pages on the internet I found give any information abut how to see, which material has been used. I think this is because everybody except me already knows this [Big Grin]

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Aboard an old pirate ship made of wet souls, we plunder and pillage from north to south poles.
We only steal metal like guns, tanks and toasters, we melt it all down and make rollercoasters.

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 12, 2007 11:45 AM

quote:
And now: smell.
The sheet got a checkbox for whether a film got "Essiggeruch" / smells like vinegar(?) or not. I thought this to sound rather funny, until I got a film that actually DOES smell like vinegar. Why/what is this?

This is a sign of the breakdown of the acetate film base which will continue to smell bad and ultimately get gooie and sticky. It's a long death sentence for safety film. Films stored in sealed cans are more likely to have the problem than those stored where air and circulate.

quote:

Next: material.
Can I somehow see which material the film is made of? It says here Acetat or Polyester. Neither the packages of the films nor any pages on the internet I found give any information abut how to see, which material has been used. I think this is because everybody except me already knows this

The easiest way is to try and tear the film. You can easily break acetate film in your fingers, polyester/estar base films need to be cut. Also estar based film base is thinner thus four hundred feet will take up less space on a reel than acetate film.

Stereo sound on super 8 requires both a main and balance stripe and one channel is recorded on the balance stripe.

There is no stereo sound possible on regular 8 film and no Super8 optical sound stereo prints.

John

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Matthias Reichl
Junior
Posts: 14
From: Mannheim, Germany
Registered: Jun 2007

posted July 12, 2007 12:16 PM

First of all: thanks for your answers!

quote:
This is a sign of the breakdown of the acetate film base which will continue to smell bad and ultimately get gooie and sticky. It's a long death sentence for safety film. Films stored in sealed cans are more likely to have the problem than those stored where air and circulate.

So whats the best way to stop or delay this process?

quote:
The easiest way is to try and tear the film.

But I don't want to tear my films apart [Eek!]

Is there no other way? My father got a film, that is completely black, except for the frames. My films are all transparent white except for the frames. I thought this could have something to do with it.

quote:
Also estar based film base is thinner thus four hundred feet will take up less space on a reel than acetate film.

Hm. I haven't noticed any significant differences with any of my films there...

quote:
Stereo sound on super 8 requires both a main and balance stripe and one channel is recorded on the balance stripe.

So if I got two stripes on the film it's stereo and one is mono? Or can a mono film too have two stripes (or does it always have two stripes)?

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Aboard an old pirate ship made of wet souls, we plunder and pillage from north to south poles.
We only steal metal like guns, tanks and toasters, we melt it all down and make rollercoasters.

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3216
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006

posted July 12, 2007 01:03 PM

Hi Matthias
Think of the sound Stripe being your left and right ears.
L & R
One edge stripe does one soundtrack for your left, and the other the right. You will need two Stripes to get stereo, and its not possible to record and replay stereo from a single track.
You can record Stereo onto 1 track. IE Mix down.
Hope this makes things a little clearer for you.

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Matthias Reichl
Junior
Posts: 14
From: Mannheim, Germany
Registered: Jun 2007

posted July 12, 2007 01:31 PM

quote:
Think of the sound Stripe being your left and right ears.

This is clear to me. Hm, how can I put this right...
My question is: If I have two stripes, does this automatically mean that the audio is stereo, or are mono recordings also put on two stripes (of course two stripes with the same information, then)? So would it be possible to tell stereo and mono films apart just by counting, how many audiostripes they have?

Sorry for my messed up English [Frown]

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 12, 2007 02:07 PM

ALL super 8 sound film has two stripes. The vast majority of prints are mono, and recorded just on the main (wide) stripe. In these cases the narrow second track has no recording at all on it, and it is there solely as a "balance' stripe to enable even wind up of the film on the reels. Some prints are released in stereo, so the left channel is on track 1 (the main stripe), and the right channel is on track 2 (the narrower balance stripe). Amateur films sometimes have sound recorded on one track and background and/or music on the other track. So you need a twin track or stereo projector to play these back so you can hear both tracks at the same time.
Stereo projectors can record in mono , twin track mono, or stereo, and playback mono, twin track mono, or stereo prints. Twin track projectors can only record mono on track 1 and/or track 2, but you can playback a stereo recording thru the aux out sockets connected to an external stereo amplifier and get true stereo.

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Matthias Reichl
Junior
Posts: 14
From: Mannheim, Germany
Registered: Jun 2007

posted July 12, 2007 02:47 PM

Thanks, this answers my question [Smile]

So there is no way for me to tell stereo and mono films apart at the moment... [Frown]

But I think I can live with that [Big Grin]

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Keith Ashfield
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 997
From: U.K.
Registered: Dec 2006

posted July 13, 2007 04:00 PM

Hello Matthias and welcome to the forum. With regards to "tearing" the film you only need to try to "tear" a little from the leader or tail of the film, no more than 12mm, at most.
With regards to the "Vinegar" smell, I think you would be wise to remove the affected film away from the other films in your collection, so as to protect them. Welcome to the wonderful world of "questions and answers".
Regards Keith

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"We'll find 'em in the end, I promise you. We'll find 'em. Just as sure as a turnin' of the earth".

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted July 13, 2007 04:56 PM

Hi personally anything vinegary goes in the bin if ever I come accross it as it does spread.
It amazes me people will even buy a film mentioning it !!!!
If you just want to seperate them for now get them into an outside shed etc well away from the others and if they have been through the projector give it a throrough clean with white spirit etc or soms furniture polish with solvent in at least.
Best wishes Mark.

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Chip Gelmini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1733
From: Brooksville, FL
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 14, 2007 09:25 AM

From Paul Addsett above.... "ALL super 8 sound film has two stripes."

This is mostly correct. There are some "Techno Films" prints circulating that do not have track 2 balance but are still mono with track 1. To the best of my knowledge these rare prints are 200 footers, Warner Cartoons and others. In addition, obviously optical sound prints have neither mag stripes.

CG

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Jean-Marc Toussaint
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: France
Registered: Oct 2004

posted July 14, 2007 10:20 AM

Paul: Chip is right, there are titles from Techno film which have only one track. As well as some early Marketing titles (spaghetti westerns in their black and white edition).

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted July 15, 2007 07:18 PM

quote:
Hm, how can I put this right...
My question is: If I have two stripes, does this automatically mean that the audio is stereo, or are mono recordings also put on two stripes (of course two stripes with the same information, then)? So would it be possible to tell stereo and mono films apart just by counting, how many audiostripes they have?

No you can't tell by looking at a print if it is stereo or mono. First remember the fact there are two stripes is a technical one to balance the film in the projector gate so it stays in focus all across the screen from left to right. Because this narrow "balance" stripe exists, some companies and many individuals started using it to record a second audio track.

The only way to tell if the print is stereo is to play it on a stereo projector and see if yuo have both a left and right channel. By the way, since balance stripe is much narrower, it will have less output (volume) and more noise than the main stripe.

As for tearing your film, as it was mentioned above you only need attack a half inch or so at the head of the film to see if it will break with yuor fingers. This is just an easy non-technical way to determine if the film is estar/polyester. Also you cannot cement (wet) splice estar prints. Acetate prints can be wet spliced by scraping and then applying a solvent and clamping in a splicer. Estar film must either be tape spliced or by means of an ultrasonic splicer.

Films which are black all across are more LIKELY reversal films like a camera original. Those that are clear on the edge are more LIKELY positive (color or black and white) prints.

These are just guide lines and you'll get more experience as you explore more films.

By all means keep ANY VINEGAR film away from all others. It can cause good film to go bad!!

How fast it will go depends on how far along the breakdown is and how it's now being stored. A closed container at warm temperatures will accelerate the action. Allowing it to air out and a lower temperature and controlled humidity, it'll last longer.

Hollywood film vaults now store precious negatives in containers that allow air to circulate and the atmosphere in the vault is controlled for temperature and humidity. Also the films are inspected anually to catch anthing while it can still be copied to new film.

JOhn

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