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Topic: Best Film Cleaner to radicate tram lines

Robert Tucker
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 688
From: Essex, UK
Registered: May 2005

posted June 10, 2008 05:11 AM

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Hi thought I’d pass this across.

I have been told that the likes of WD40 work as a good measure of cleaning up old films especially Technicolor prints. Does anyone know what exactly is the best way of reducing tramlines, which come and go? I have been told if it is a base scratch then more chances are you can treat these.

Best.

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

posted June 10, 2008 04:36 PM

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WD40 will harm your prints.

Use FilmGuard for cleaning and lubricating.

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted June 10, 2008 04:46 PM

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It will also fry your brains, the best lines wise, and as it happens, the least whiffy is FILMGAURD.
Best Mark.

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Adam Wilkins
Junior
Posts: 17
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
Registered: May 2008

posted June 10, 2008 08:04 PM

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Is Filmguard suitable for both Acetate and Polyester? silent/sound film?

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Brian Hendel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 902
From: New York, New York
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 10, 2008 08:42 PM

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I tried FILMGUARD for the first time this past weekend and was amazed at how well it got rid of superficial surface lines. It made them disappear more effectively that FILM RENEW (which I had been using). I highly recommend it. The odor is not overpowering either. Of course there's nothing you can do about the nasty, deep, green emulsion lines -- but fo the light lines it's a miracle worker...

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

posted June 10, 2008 11:20 PM

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FilmRenew is not designed for 'wet-gate' projection like FilmGuard.

I use both cleaners for different purposes - both are useful - both are safe for use on acetate or polyester stocks.

I use FilmRenew for removing tape residue and other debris from film by hand and for soaking brittle film to restore plasticity. FilmRenew evaporates and will not remain on the film ( other than the wax it contains )

I use FilmGuard to lubricate prints and for wetgate projection. To apply by hand, I spray the reel sides with FilmGuard; place the film on rewinds; Then use a cleaning cloth to clean the print and evenly distribute the FilmGuard. FilmGuard does not evaporate ( or it evaporates very slowly ) remaining on the print - which is how it helps hide base scratches during projection.

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 11, 2008 03:33 AM

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Roy, WD40 does not harm prints. I personally wouldn't use it on Super 8 but experiments have been done by members of the forum. Perhaps Craig Hamilton should update us on his reel of film soaked in WD40 for a year or so.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Roy Neil
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 203
From: Menlo Park, CA
Registered: Sep 2007

posted June 11, 2008 04:07 AM

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I havent any firsthand experience using WD40 on a print, I am echoing what I have read Brad Miller post on the subject, so you have more experience than me John.

From what I understand long term exposure will cause emulsion to bleed, however I believe Brad Miller may be the best qualified to provide a definitive answer.

Bear in mind, WD40 is not a lubricant by design - its a Water Displacement fluid.

WD40 @ wikipedia

I might add, when purchasing film I would wish to know if the print had been treated, and with which substance(s).

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Craig Hamilton
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 501
From: Luton
Registered: Sep 2004

posted June 11, 2008 04:18 AM

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Ahhh... the old WD40 experiment! A couple of years ago on the forum a discussion came up about film cleaning. This subject can open a can of worms as all collectors have their own chosen method and preferred product.

WD40 was mentioned as a cleaner as some collectors had used it in the past with good results. Some other collectors seemed to think that it would destroy their film stock. So the debate went on and on. WD40 is a water displacement product (hence WD) the formula was perfected on the 40th attempt (hence 40) this gives you a product name of WD40 (yes I know I'm sad) Anyway, I had a reel containing about 50ft of Jaws that was riddled with black tram lines, the colour and sound was good to begin with. I normally used this reel of film to do test runs on any projector that I was repairing or adjusting. This was my sacrificial film if anything went wrong.

To test the WD40 theory, I immersed the whole reel in a plastic tub and fully submerged it in the WD40. The film was removed after 24hrs and no damage was visible. The film was then put back in to the solution and left for just over 1 year. Why a year? simple, I forgot about it [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

When I finally got round to removing it, I thought here we go, one tub of mush to dispose of. Wrong! after a couple of passes through the rewind arms to remove as much as possible I projected the film. Sound quality not affected at all. Picture quality showed no colour deterioration but a massive improvement visually as not a single line was visible. This print is still in use today.

In conclusion, I have used WD40 on other prints, but this time I used the product as you would any other film cleaner, on a cloth and rewind arms.

Film cleaning is a personal thing and some collectors do have their favorite product. My advise is to use what you are happy with. Filmgaurd is an excellent all round cleaner and lubricator, and is Brad Millers baby. If it's good enough for 35mm cinema prints, then it's good for 8mm.

So, stick with what you know and like. Or if you have some old film stock, try another product.

Craig

--------------------
I dream of becoming a dealer!!!!!!
Is Perry's Movies for Sale.

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Simon McConway
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1085
From: Doncaster, UK
Registered: Jun 2004

posted June 11, 2008 04:22 AM

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Why experiment just to save yourself £6? Pointless. Use the proper cleaner designed for the purpose. This way, we won't risk ruining valuable film. If you are going to try WD40, why not try running your car on orange juice? Could save yourself money!

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Keith Ashfield
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 997
From: U.K.
Registered: Dec 2006

posted June 11, 2008 04:22 AM

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Craig, you smooth talking devil! Is this the time to resurect the "Baby Oil" debate? [Wink]

[Wink]

--------------------
"We'll find 'em in the end, I promise you. We'll find 'em. Just as sure as a turnin' of the earth".

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Craig Hamilton
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 501
From: Luton
Registered: Sep 2004

posted June 11, 2008 04:35 AM

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Simon, orange juice just does not deliver the performance we require [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

We have at work been running a diesel engine on Vegetable oil for nearly two years now and believe me the bloody thing runs a treat. Some boffin even gave the vegetable oil a technical name ( Bio Fuel ) Yes, this new wonder fuel on the market is nothing more than refined cooking oil with additives.

Simon, for the sake of £6 it is worth trying other products. Derann sell a cleaner that is intended for cleaning film. Try it and you to will have a sacrificial film.

Keith, I do use baby oil for lubricating old stock, but it's not film [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

Craig

--------------------
I dream of becoming a dealer!!!!!!
Is Perry's Movies for Sale.

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Keith Ashfield
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 997
From: U.K.
Registered: Dec 2006

posted June 11, 2008 06:33 AM

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Craig, I trust your "better half" doesn't read this forum? If she does you're a very brave man. [Razz]

[Razz]

--------------------
"We'll find 'em in the end, I promise you. We'll find 'em. Just as sure as a turnin' of the earth".

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

posted June 11, 2008 11:08 AM

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Craig, have you tried Vaseline? You put it on the outside door knob... it keeps the Children (or in some cases, grandchildren) out while you're using the baby oil......

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted June 11, 2008 11:49 AM

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I'll have to remember that one martin, as we are expecting our first born in two and a half month's (YAY)

Yeh, I'll bet I'll be saying "YAY" after a year of diapers, spit up, bottles!

My only concern or those who would "wet project" a film right after cleaning something, wouldn't there be a chance of extremely hot projector and lamp causing a potential fire?

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 11, 2008 11:58 AM

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A year of diapers the man says!

Ours achieved full potty function at about 36 months!

-and he's considered to be very bright!

Bless you in your new adventure Osi, it's like nothing you will have ever encountered before.

For some reason the idea of twins never terrified me before I became a father...

--------------------
All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Brad Miller
Administrator

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From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 11, 2008 01:41 PM

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Kodak did testing on WD-40 years ago and found that although the initial impression was that it didn't damage the film, as time passed WD-40 leeched the dyes out of the image causing color bleed.

If you have some junk reel of something that you don't care about, hey why not? However anything that is important to you, that's taking an awful big risk since Kodak already did extensive testing on WD-40.

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Dan Lail
Film God

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From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 11, 2008 01:50 PM

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Thanks, Brad. I am in total agreement. My collection has cost a lot of money over the years. Using a product that is not meant for film and has been proven to damage film in the long run is unacceptable.

This topic evolved from WD40 to baby diapers! That kinda' says it all. [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

[Eek!]

[Confused]

[Razz]

[Roll Eyes]

[Cool]

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 11, 2008 04:14 PM

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Your right this thread sorta shifted to Baby Oil etc which was far more interesting as we have thrashed the WD40 and Amourall Wipes to death in earlier topics.

Come on guys just click on the search button and put in WD40 that's what the search button is for [Wink]

[Wink]

BTW Cif Lemon Cream Cleaner hides the original scratches a treat and smells good too. Does wear the GS's guides a little quicker but you get an incredible increase in light through your film [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Dan Lail
Film God

Posts: 2110
From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 11, 2008 05:04 PM

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I soaked a print of Bridget Bardot in strawberries and whip cream. [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted June 11, 2008 07:19 PM

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Ooooh, did she object?

I was always partial to the young Barbera Carrera. She looked stunning in that dress in "Island of Dr. M"!

... and not bad in "Lone Wolf McQuade" all wet in dat water fight!

(Both optical sound super 8 prints).

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

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From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 12, 2008 10:09 AM

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And the winner in the "Furthest Deviation From Original Topic" category is......

Doug

--------------------
I think there's room for just one more film.....

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