8mm Forum: MGM CARTOONS

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Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on January 17, 2009, 07:47 PM:

Hi Guy's,
Could any one give me an idea of available MGM cartoons on super 8, such as the MGM Happy Harmonies series and early Rudolf Ising cartons made at the studios. These are not available on DVD and so are more desirable to me than the more readily available Warner Bro Cartoons. I don’t know a lot about the MGM early animation history, but what I have seen has really impressed me, some look as good as any Disney title of the same era. So any info would also be appreciated.

Cheers,
Chris.

Posted by Michael Scheck (Member # 114) on January 18, 2009, 03:01 AM:

@Christopher:
Did you know that Disney's Silly Symphony-Cartoon "Merbabies" (1938) was produced in the Harman-Ising studio? Disney was too busy planning full lenght features at that time, so they made a contract with Harman-Ising for three Silly Symphonies. In the end, only one was released under the Disney banner.

Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on January 18, 2009, 05:46 PM:

Thanks Michael, i didn't know that. That now has vindicated my opinion that these cartoons are on par with Disney. And Rudolf Ising was trying to get a feature length cartoon three years before Disney.
Chris.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 20, 2009, 02:16 PM:

That's a good question Chris. besides a few, (such as "Peace on earth") I haven't seen too many of the Harman Ising MGM cartoons available.

I have to differ in that one opinion however. Though MGM's animation was quite good in the 1930's cartoons, (MGM always had some of the biggest budgets for they're films), the quality of story was what set Disney and MGM apart. MGM during the 30's was certainly capable of doing great work, but when you look at the cartoons as a whole, you find that Disney was leap years ahead of MGM.

... and this comes from a person who has, quite frankly, soured on Disney's animation for some time.

All the different american animation studio's were suffering from "Disney Envy" in the thirties and when hey all created thier own identity, (which started in the late 1930's), they then created thier own style and what made them famous, instead of the "also ran" category.

Good luck on searching for them, however.

Posted by Joe Taffis (Member # 4) on January 21, 2009, 05:14 PM:

[Wink]

[ October 25, 2009, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Joe Taffis ]

Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on January 29, 2009, 10:48 AM:

I have got Flowers and Trees the first Technicolor cartoon made by Disney on super 8 a great print to. I was looking for MGM's and i will try and get some of there classic's on film. For the time being i have acquired the HAPPY HARMONIES Laserdisc Box set which include all these MGM classics...

SIDE 1 - MUSICAL FANTASIAS

Tale of the Vienna Woods
The Blue Danube
The Mad Maestro
Art Gallery
Abdul the Bulbul Ameer
Dance of the Weed

SIDE 2 - LITTLE CUTIES

Poor Little Me
Barnyard Babies
Two Little Pups
Little Cheeser
The Little Goldfish
The Little Mole

SIDE 3 - COLORFUL CHARACTERS

The Calico Dragon
Hey-Hey Fever
Bosko's Easter Eggs
The Old Plantation
Little Buck Cheeser
The Lonesome Stranger

SIDE 4 - SWINGIN' CATS AND CRITTERS

Toyland Broadcast
Honeyland
The Chinese Nightingale
Tom Turkey And His Harmonica Humdingers
Romeo in Rythm
Swing Wedding

SIDE 5 - BEDTIME STORIES

Bottles
To Spring
Pipe Dreams
The Bookworm
Peace on Earth
The Milky Way

SIDE 6 - BARNEY BEAR

The Bear That Couldn't Sleep
The Fishing Bear
The Flying Bear
The Bear and the Beavers
Barney Bear's Victory Garden
Barney Bear And "The Uninvited Pest"

SIDE 7 - CARTOON CLASSICS

Goldilocks and the Three Bears
Home on the Range
Mrs. Ladybug
The Alley Cat
The Field Mouse
The Boy and The Wolf

If anyone can give me a list of MGM cartoons not Tom & Jerry, available on film, i will then move on to that next.

I have to say i am not saying that Disney was not the number animation house, of course it was, but, there are some MGM cartoons out there that are in my humble opinion just as good.
I am trying to find time to read about early animation, and starting to build a collection of classic cartoons up over 3 formats FILM, DVD, LASERDISC. Although i get some funny looks, even trying to explain the art form of these cartoons goes over a lot of people’s heads.

Any help and info is always appreciated.
Thanks for your comments.
Chris.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 29, 2009, 01:22 PM:

Hey, those laserdisc collections are nothing to knock! I have each and every Tom and Jerry cartoon released on Laserdisc (two box sets) and the harder to find box set of "The Compleat Tex Avery", and they still look dynamite!

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on January 29, 2009, 07:01 PM:

Chris,

I've looked through my MGM catalogs and the only cartoons listed are Tom & Jerry. Red Fox released quite a few of the MGMs, and I'm assuming Derann now has many of those negatives. Cineavision put out a few in scope.

Here are the ones I know of that are available on Super 8mm:

Bad Luck Blackie
Blitz Wolf
Calico Dragon, The
Cock A Doodle Dog
Counterfeit Cat
Cross Country Detours
Cuckoo Clock, The
Deputy Droopy
Dixieland Droopy
Doggone Tired
Drag Along Droopy
Droopy Leprechaun
Garden Gopher
Good Will To Men (scope)
Isle of Pingo Pongo
King Size Canary
Little Rural Riding Hood
Lonesome Lenny
Magical Maestro
Millionaire Droopy (scope)
One Droopy Knight
Peace On Earth
Rainy Day, A
Red Hot Riding Hood
Rhapsody In Rivets
Screwball Squirrel
Swing Shift Cinderella
Uncle Tom's Cabaña
Ventriloquist Cat

Doug

Posted by Michael Scheck (Member # 114) on January 30, 2009, 06:47 AM:

@Douglas:
"Cross Country Detours", "Rhapsody in Rivets" and "The Isle of Pingo Pongo" are Warner Cartoons.

@Christopher
There are some Harman-Ising-MGM-Cartoons on Super8, besides the "Calico Daragon" and "Bottles". Phil of CLASSIC told me that "To Spring" was released on Super8 once - there must be some used prints of it around. And I assume that there are probably more...
These HAPPY HARMONY-Cartoons were great - especially the animation was amazing!
And I don't agree with Osi who said, that the Harman-Ising-Cartoons differed to the Disney-Cartoons in terms of storytelling. There are some great HAPPY HARMONIES such as "To Spring" or "Goldilocks" wich could easily compare with the Disney Shorts of that time!

[ January 30, 2009, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Michael Scheck ]

Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on January 30, 2009, 09:49 AM:

Thanks Guy's,
As I read up on the Harman-Ising era, I am gaining more and more respect. They refused to cut costs, much to MGM's frustration. MGM opened its own cartoon house and hired sales executive Fred Quimbly, but it was quite apparent to Quimbly after a while that the in house cartoons such as Captain and the kids, were not working, so he re-hired the duo Harman-Ising. In 1939 Ising produced the first Barney bear cartoon The Bear who couldn’t Sleep. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IrVlu8MaFsA 1940 Rudolf Ising won an academy award for The Milky Way http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=V2URYX9nfQA and MGM became the first studio to wrestle an academy award away from Disney. Although not a favourite of mine, I much prefer The Blue Danube http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=slXuyAeK-QE&feature=PlayList&p=D2CB3867D6785351&playnext=1&index=15

Peace on Earth also was nominated for an academy and the Nobel peace prize! http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J8OYvHPpGDY

Sorry I’m waffling on, but I am excited to get the chance to view these cartoons on my home cinema set up for the first time. I am in the process of trying to buy a laserdisc player.

I will keep my eye open for the super 8 versions, I hope though that they are the full versions and have not been edited I will find out in time.

If you have more info, please, please, post.

Thanks very much Guy’s
Chris.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 30, 2009, 12:33 PM:

Chris,

If I'm not mistaken, either cinevision or another company released "One Droopy Knight" in Cinemascope. The is always the common falt version which I believe was put out by Derann.

Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on January 31, 2009, 12:46 AM:

Thanks Osi,
Not a cartoon i would go for, although an academy nominated short for 1957, and finished of by Hanna & Barbera as Tex had left the building so to speak. The 1943 Dumb Hounded is better, is there a 8mm copy floating about?

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 31, 2009, 11:55 AM:

Actually Chris, those last Droopy cartoons, (made during MGM's final original years), we're not directed by Hanna or Barbera.
I can't remember the name of the fellow, but he was Tex Avery's assistant director, so he took over direction for Tex Avery for those last year releases.

Also, according to the way these studio's would do the releases, they would have thier cartoons slated far ahead, (as, at MGM, from the time that they started work on a cartoon until the time it actually hit the screen, was a year and a half!), so all but one of the "non Tex Avery cartoons" were actually scripted and largely gag filled by Tex Avery Himself! The timing of the gags, however, were slightly off, as this was what made Tex Avery's "look" unique. Still, on a whole, the non Tex Droopy's looked far better than the Tom and Jerry's of that same period, and this was because Tex's stamp was upon those Droopy's. You see that very clearly on "One Droopy Knight".

Just a little animation history for ya!

Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on January 31, 2009, 02:06 PM:

Cheers Osi,
Yes the Avery unit at MGM close down in 1953 and June of that year Avery left to join Walter Lantz studios, and it was Michael Lah that directed the first cinemascope Droopy, One Droopy Knight. And Hanna & Barbera produced it.

The animation of One Droopy Knight (1957) is well inferior to Dumb Hounded (1943) and other early Droopy's even the 1946 Northwest Hounded Police http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=T5QpGzkL0h4&feature=related The Droopy's of the 50's where heavily influenced by UPA, and no longer to the theatrical standard. Its academy award has to be put into perspective with the cartoons of the day I suppose, all pretty awful UPA type stuff. Don't get me wrong, the gags are fun but the animation is to be at fair poor. I don’t think Tex had anything to do with this particular Droopy though, could be wrong, but a big gap between Tex leaving and the release date 1957.

Chris.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 02, 2009, 12:23 PM:

The last Tex Avery Droopy, if I remember correctly, was the one, (name escapes me), in which Droopy is a Deputy, (Hey! I bet it was called "Deputy Droopy", and it had that very UPA inspired look that you talked aboout. Also, the release before that one, Dixieland Droopy" was also very UPA inspired, so that translation to highly stylized graphics and charaters, was well underway ...

Which is funny, as Tex Avery's one scope Droopy release, "Millionaire Droopy", (which was a scope release on Super 8, I used to have it), had very UPA stylized graphics, yet had the very old 40.s inspired Droopy. They simply took the same animation from the 40's (as it was a remake) and simply put stylized new graphics behind it, (they also got rid of one of the gags, to cut down on running time and save money).

Tex, in some interviews, had said that he had really tired of the whole assembly line production methods, and except for four or five cartoons done for Walter lantz, (Crazy Mixed Up Pup, a classic! Also availalble on Super 8!), he retired from theatrical cartoons.

What was strange, (and kind of sad) was that Tex would return to cartoon animation shorts, by working for the Hanna barbera cartoon studio in the early 1980's. he did the cartoons that starred a tough guy "Cave Mouse" which was pat of a Flinstones weekly variety show.

... and, we'll always remember his "Raid" animated commericials!

Posted by Panayotis A. Carayannis (Member # 1220) on February 02, 2009, 04:55 PM:

Dear Chris
In fact,there have been too many MGM Harman-Ising cartoons on the 8mm market,if you care to dig into the one-pound baskets at the film fairs.In the older std 8 days,Mountain (or Heritage,or Enfield or whatever) did release a number of Happy Harmonies, including the first one THE DISCONTENTED CANARY (1934), unfortunately,either in complete b&w versions or shortened color ones and often with changed titles (Or, Heritage released them under their original title and Mountain under another!) i.e. THE OLD PIONEER became "Wagon Train";TOYLAND BROADCAST ,"Toyland Capers"; HONEYLAND,"Busy Bees";BARNYARD BABIES,"Showtime";LITTLE BUCK CHEEZER,"Moon Mouse".Retaining their original titles: TOYLAND BROADCAST;THE CALICO DRAGON (later released complete by Red Fox);WHEN THE CAT'S AWAY;THE HOUND AND THE RABBIT;LITTLE BANTAMWEIGHT;THE PUPS' CHRISTMAS;TWO LITTLE PUPS; PUPS'PICNIC; THE EARLY BIRD AND THE WORM;Most were also issued in Super 8. Five Boscos were issued by Steve Vilarino; HEY,HEY FEVER;BOSCO AND THE CANNIBALS;BOSCO AND THE PIRATES;THE OLD HOUSE;BOSCO'S EASTER EGGS; also ,SWING WEDDING.Red Fox issued PEACE ON EARTH, and I'm sure I am missing a few! "Recent" releases include TO SPRING ,ROOKIE BEAR and A RAINY DAY.
Then we have about 60 (yes, sixty!) Tom and Jerrys,including only one or two from the Chuck Jones period.
Doug pretty much covered the Avery titles to which I may add JERKY TURKEY and SENOR DROOPY (directed by Dick Lundy) and Derann did release flat versions of originally scope cartoons. Tex Avery did share the direction of his later cartoons with Michael Lah,and after he left,Lah continued the Droopy series alone.Droopy's design did become simplified (and unappealing) by the mid fifties,until he became an UPA clone.
Well,that covers the story,more or less.Additions and corrections,welcome.

Posted by Panayotis A. Carayannis (Member # 1220) on February 03, 2009, 12:04 AM:

Oops,I made a mistake here. SENOR DROOPY is a Tex Avery cartoon. I mixed it up with the later CABALLERO DROOPY which was directed by Dick Lundy and is not available in 8mm.

Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on February 03, 2009, 11:21 AM:

Hi Osi,
Thanks for all this info, you have put me right on a few things.

Could anyone recommend some good books on animation, including the history and art of animation? And is there a book on the MGM animation studio or Harman & Ising biography?

Thanks Panayotis,
Great info there, I'm hoping to later on to build a garden cinema to show my super 8 films, I want to collect as many MGM's as i can. This is a great resourse and i will use it to track down some of these shorts.

Chris.

Chris.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 03, 2009, 12:36 PM:

Chris ...

The best authority for American animated films, (covering nearly every studio, even the 30's studio's that only lasted a few years) is

"Of Mice and Magic" written by the film critic Leorard Maltin.

It's an absolute must have on the subject and you'll find that you just can't put it down. Along with all the cartoons, it has a complete listing of ALL releases by each studio covered, a complete listing (up to about 1990) of all academy award winning cartoons and the runners up, AND lavishly illustrated as well!

Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on February 03, 2009, 11:47 PM:

Thanks Osi,
I will endeavour to obtain a copy.
Chris.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on February 05, 2009, 11:30 AM:

Chris ...

There is a print of "Dixieland Droopy" on the Derann list, if your interested in it.

OSI

Posted by Panayotis A. Carayannis (Member # 1220) on February 05, 2009, 03:50 PM:

The new Independent list has quite a few Harman-Ising cartoons.Look carefully!

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on February 05, 2009, 08:05 PM:

I have two MGM prints that I definitely recommend:

Peace on Earth - Red Fox ( I have the flat version, and it works very well)
Magical Maestro - Derann

Both of which have excellent color.

I wish that the MGM Tex Avery cartoon: "Who killed who?" was available.
Fred Kelsey as the detective ( same as in The Laurel - Hardy murder case)
and many great gags.

Posted by Panayotis A. Carayannis (Member # 1220) on July 21, 2013, 03:09 AM:

Somewhat belatedly (!)I discovered that Film Office also released five Barney Bears,renaming him Barnabe.SLEEPYTIME SQUIRRELL (Barnabe & l'ecureil),BEAR AND THE BEANS (B.& le haricot sauteur),HALF PINT PALOMINO (B. & le petit cheval),BEAR AND THE BEAVERS (B. joue au castor) and IMPOSSIBLE POSSUM (B. et l' opossum).F.O. also released, as a "Barnabe",Avery's ROCK A BYE BEAR (B. ronfleur).
Moving to Spain,the releases of which I am only recently
discovering, a company called Mahier Films issued the first Barney cartoon,THE BEAR THAT COULDN'T SLEEP (El oso que no podia dormir). Mahier also released other MGMs from the thirties and early forties.I have:A TALE OF THE VIENNA WOODS (Bosques de Vienna),ROMEO IN RHYTHM (Romeo el intrepido),THE BLUE DANUBE (El Danubo Azul)and ABDUL THE BULBUL AMIR (Abdul,el gran califa).All films are in their original english with good soundtracks.The F.O.s are exellent in pictorial quality and lacking only the original credits,but retaining the Barney Bear logo. The Ms are complete from beginning to end leader,credits intact,but have all turned red by now. Has anyone info on other Mahier,or other's, titles? Any lists,or catalogues to scan?

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on July 21, 2013, 10:27 AM:

Just to add some infos, I am not an exert on MGM cartoon but I have the following titles which I could find the MGM logos were on the opening title:

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006827;p=2

Posted by Panayotis A. Carayannis (Member # 1220) on February 20, 2014, 03:39 AM:

Just to repeat my question (and quest!).Has anyone a list of those Mahier "dibujos musicales en color" from Spain, MGM Harman Ising cartoons not released elsewhere in 8 mm?

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