8mm Forum: How about a few furom guidelines

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Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on May 04, 2009, 11:37 PM:

I've been thinking about a few guidelines that would make things a little less complicated and/or dissapointing in the forum.Tell me what you think.
1.If a collector is very very finicky about his prints,let someone who is selling or swapping you a film know in advance.Two people can have two completly different ideas of what an excellent print is.This might eliminate some misunderstandings.
2.A Swap Shop.A catagory for people with films they want to swap only.Or projectors,or books or anything!
3.Not all collectors have unlimited resources.Some of us can only afford those bargain films that folks kindly list on here.Nothing is worse than seeing an affordable film here and before you can respond,it's been bought and listed on ebay.This is the place we go to get away from all that ebay crap.If I sold a film cheaply and I saw it on ebay the next week,I would be pretty upset.I would much rather have a REEL collector enjoy my film than some snoid profitting from it.
Just a few ideas to boot around

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on May 04, 2009, 11:59 PM:

John,
I have to respectfully disagree with your last point.

If someone sells a print and the subsequent buyer wants to list it on ebay for a higher price, that is perfectly reasonable. Some people earn their livings by reselling film prints, and as long as no one misled the original seller, a buyer who is buying to resell is no more a "snoid" than anyone else. Sales on the forum are first come first served regardless of who is buying.

As for a seller being upset if someone bought their print and relisted it -- the seller set the price and therefore has no right to be upset or pissed off if the buyer decides to resell.

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on May 05, 2009, 01:40 AM:

I think I see both sides, it is really not possible to dictate who buys a print and what they do with it once purchased. That being said I am often the victim of such re-sells and it is my least favorite part of the hobby these days. Since it is no longer possible to buy many of the films I am looking for from the reasonably priced dealers, I generally find I am overpaying for the ones I really want. Would I love it if people only bought the prints they actually wanted? YES! - but that ain't gonna happen as long as people think they can make a buck... [Frown]

Posted by Jim Carlile (Member # 812) on May 05, 2009, 03:40 AM:

quote:
I would much rather have a REEL collector enjoy my film than some snoid profitting from it.

You mean this guy? I agree.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on May 05, 2009, 09:51 AM:

Hey! Thats a Snoid! Looks like a Robert Crumb character, (any of you Ole hippie guys like me remember Crumb?).

As a person who buys like this sometimes, I can explain much of that. For instance, I bought most of a collection of digests that one of our fellows listed on here. He wanted (total, for all of those that I got) 190.00 dollars. No one bought them.

He listed them all as a lot on ebay, and won the lot for 51.00 dollars. There were only two of those digests that I wanted, and being that we have been unemployed for eight months now, I need to recoup almost every dollar I spend on films these days, so I listed the ones that I didn't want.

Thankfully, I not only made back the 51.00 dollars, and kept the two 2X400ft digests that I wanted, I also made an additional thirty dollars profit over the top.

... it all went in the gas tank!

... but I was able to continue to collect and it was just the luck of the draw on ebay, (as you never REALLY know if your films will sell or not).

So, I see where your coming from, John.

Condition is another thing that seems to be based upon personal feelings. How many prints have been described on ebay as excellent condition, and you get them, and you wouldn't run them on a GAF projector, (oooh, there's a slam!). Even a few dealers, (which will not be mentioned by name) will have an "A" listing for film condition, and it actually has "C" color, which really makes the value of the print almost nothing, no matter how rare the film is. (fortunately for us, there are very few dealers like that around these days).

How many of us remember that infamous post about a print a forum member got, which had a staple, A STAPLE being used to splice the film!?

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on May 05, 2009, 10:06 AM:

John W. Black wrote..........

quote:
This is the place we go to get away from all that ebay crap.If I sold a film cheaply and I saw it on ebay the next week,I would be pretty upset.I would much rather have a REEL collector enjoy my film than some snoid profitting from it.
Just a few ideas to boot around

First let me say Steve S. summed it up spot on. I have been a film seller/buyer and collector for 8 years. Without film sellers there would be no films for collectors. The Big Reel died out because of Ebay(internet sales). Calling film sellers "snoids" is not helping the hobby, in fact you are insulting a lot of the members on the forum. Derann, CHC, Perrys, etc. buy and sale used films all the time. Are they "snoids" too?

P.S. I do not have unlimited funds. [Eek!]

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on May 05, 2009, 11:28 AM:

To Dino:
The word "victim" is perjorative. You are NOT a victim if you set the price and sold something to someone and they sell it for a profit. That's the way all businesses work.

Dan L is quite correct - Derann, CHC, Perry's and all the other dealers are in business to make a profit - if they didn't make a profit, they'd be out of business. Dealers often take risks and put up lots of money up front buying up large collections. They then take the time (in most cases) to inspect the prints, and list them for collectors to buy.

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on May 05, 2009, 11:30 AM:

Thank God for Derann and CHC.They are businesses who work hard to keep the flag flying. I can also see buying a package and selling off the unwanted prints. Problem with the ebay generation is it has taken away the interpersonal aspect of collecting. Buying,swapping and selling films is all part of the hobby. However,when people are just looking for chances to profit on a purchase when someone else might really want the same film for the collection,I can't help but think something is wrong there. Mayve because I started collecting long before the ebay mentality arrived,it's harder to understand. But in many ways,it was a lot better then. As far as the Big Reel and such,the internet killed them off as people stopped reading and used the internet only for sources. A shame as a lot of knowledgable collectors and dealers don't do the internet,people are missing out on some great people and great stuff. For some odd reason,this is more true of 8mm collectors as opposed to 16mm.Classic Images is doing great with 16mm ads now but can't seem to get 8mm collectors involved.

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on May 05, 2009, 11:36 AM:

Sorry John, but I just don't get your point - why is it that "something is wrong there" -- the film is posted for sale on an open market -- anyone who wants it can bid for it. If you want the print for your collection but get outbid, why should it matter what that other buyer wants it for? He was willing to pay more than you were. In fact, if resellers stopped bidding on individual titles, then the original sellers might get less for their prints. To me this all sounds a lot like sour grapes.

With that all said - most serious dealers buy their film in bulk lots, not individual titles. For example, I just bought a collection last week of 400+ prints...

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on May 05, 2009, 11:39 AM:

Definitely name calling never helps anything (even when done in jest) but I see a big difference between the reselling I'm not fond of and what you mentioned Osi. I have had to purchase lots before to get that elusive one or two I wanted from the lot, but I think the thing I'm not crazy about, nor will I ever be crazy about are the folks that work the system so to speak, like when collector magazines allow you to pay a little more to get it early so you can scoop up the deals, or a collectors show that allows an early walk through for a premium entrance price. Is it a part of these types of hobbies? YES...will it ever go away? NO... Do I have to like it? no.....But no one is a "snoid" or anything for that matter just because they are the ones that take advantage of these things....I just think it becomes more annoying nowadays because there are not many places where you can buy things at a set price that seems affordable for the casual collector, so when everything has to be picked up in either an auction setting or a premium price setting, it makes some wonder if now is the time to get out of the hobby.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on May 05, 2009, 12:14 PM:

STEVEN!! With 400 plus prints just purchased ... would one of them be "Popeye Meets Ali Baba and His 40 thieves"? I'm still looking and hoping for a good print!

I do understand where John is coming from. Our hobby is a very personal bunch of fun, and so I can see the joy one would get from selling a print to another person who loves film as much as I do.

For instance, if I bought that "Popeye" from Douglas some day in the distant future, (unless I run into a good one somewhere else), Douglas knows that I would cherish it. My long search for a good print of "Hoppity Goes to Town" ended up in two great prints, one AGFA and one L.P.P., and I cherish those!

But I must say that, while the internet closed down "The Big Reel",(which I never had the chance to do business with, but sounded like a great company), I wouldn't have my collection, OR THIS GREAT FORUM, without it!

As for that other company that wants to involve Super 8 people as well, you get the good stuff out there, you get the business.
I'm still hoping to get some Classic animation commercials out on 200ft Super 8 releases.

It's funny, I have little money, but I would be willing to invest in this if it actually becomes a reality. Those with big bucks, who could actually afford to invest in this kind of venture, are always holding onto thier money like s**t just because it doesn't seem like a great investment.

Shoot! I know that I probably wouldn't have any profit on releasing new 200ft releases now, I'd probably lose money, but I'd still love to do it. Thats how much I LOVE this hobby!

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on May 05, 2009, 12:53 PM:

Hi Osi,
The stuff I just bought is all 16mm, don't think there are any popeyes, but you never know... -- I don't buy 8mm pacakges much anymore -- the last time I had any serious 8mm stuff was about 4-5 years ago...

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on May 05, 2009, 02:15 PM:

Blackie's right, and I've mentioned it a hundred times, that the "live" expos/shows are so-needed where collectors and dealers are one-on-one and can see and talk the hobby through - My nickel on it

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on May 05, 2009, 02:29 PM:

JOhn W. Black wrote........

quote:
This is the place we go to get away from all that ebay crap

If you don't like Ebay, then don't go their. 99.99% of all my Ebay film purchases have been good deals and good films. Don't blindly buy from a seller without checking there feedback and asking questions. Set you top bid price(what you are willing to pay for it) and stick to it.

I don't agree with Ebay's new CEO and the policy changes, but this doesn't necessarily make the merchandise crap. [Cool]

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on May 05, 2009, 02:31 PM:

Side note to Dan L. -- are my emails getting though to you? Haven't heard back on the last couple I sent...

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on May 05, 2009, 03:05 PM:

Hi, Steve, got it! A reply is on it's way, Thanks. [Smile]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on May 05, 2009, 03:25 PM:

Darn! Oh well, I thought I would ask Steve.

The search continued ... yoicks and away!

Posted by Larry Arpin (Member # 744) on May 05, 2009, 08:53 PM:

I usually only sell my films, now, when I don't like either the quality or other reason. I've sold some because I needed the money. I cringed at Doug's 'stacked films' when I saw ALIEN standing there because I know that was mine, at one time. I know I sold him another print simply because I didn't like the quality of it, even though everyone praised it, but I wouldn't have known unless I bought it in the first place. So everyone has a reason for buying and selling. And if you can make a little profit in the process, so be it.

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on May 05, 2009, 09:26 PM:

Osi wrote.........

quote:
How many of us remember that infamous post about a print a forum member got, which had a staple, A STAPLE being used to splice the film!?

That was me. I bought it from a fellow forum member who was selling it on the forum. He hasn't posted here since(couple of years ago). Hmmm!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on May 05, 2009, 09:37 PM:

Well films are a regular "staple" of my daily diet!

I'm really enjoying this series of "furom" posts!

Hey Dan, could you shoot me an e-mail, telling me who the "Staple Forum Member" was? I'm just curious.

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on May 06, 2009, 12:22 AM:

I think a few people are missing the point.Greed bay has created a mentality of get at all costs.Disagree if you want,but you know that it's true.I have bought on ebay because I have to sometimes for the reason that it killed the publications that had ads.I miss knowing who I'm dealing with as opposed to some odd i.d. And again,let me say,as someone with a limited income,as some others here are,it's maddening that people who,before Greed Bay,would have never looked at that inexpensive pink print,now salavates at the profir he will make reselling it.Sorry,kids,it stinks on ice.What is happening to this fine hobby is a lot of people have the attitude of "If you can't afford it,too bad".This hobby didn't used to be like this,you newbies have missed a lot when the hobby was more friendly and less greedy.Film cons were great,the internet comes,nobody leaves home to go to them.Film buddies actually used to meet up all the time,I'm sure a couple still do,but not many.Truth be told,the hobby in many ways has been dehumanised.Oh,sorry about offending by using the term snoid.Didn't know it was such a horrible thing.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on May 06, 2009, 12:23 AM:

I often buy complete lots of film on 16mm and Super 8. I almost always keep the few I want and resell the rest.

I have recently done that on ebay again (last week) and find films find their true value. Not everything about ebay is good, but what it has done is find the true value of films. Remember back in the 70's and 80's they were mostly priced according to their length!

David

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on May 06, 2009, 12:47 AM:

It's not really a true value.If you get two "must havers",the price will escalate far past the true worth

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on May 06, 2009, 01:19 AM:

I want to know where you guys are finding "lots" of film to buy...I want some [Big Grin]

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on May 06, 2009, 01:36 AM:

John, that is true market value. It works both ways however, if two people do not consider a film a must have, then a third person gets a bargain.

When a film goes for a high price like you mention, it will encourgae others with that same film to put it on the market, the more that come on, the moroe the price will go down. If only one other person puts that film up for bid, the price of the film may go even higher, that is a true market value.

I had an R/T Charger car that I sold in in 1992 for $14,000. That exact same car sold last year for $149,000 in the same condition. I wish I'd have kept it, but I sold it for what was a fair market value at the time. Guess what, that car could probably be bought for tens of thousands less right now due to the economic meltdown.

I, as much as anyone else here, loves to find a keenly priced film bargain. Often these bargains I will keep forever, so I do see part of your point, but I don't think you can begrudge others buying low and selling high. I happily paid over $150 for a 18 minute short last week, but I have been after it for 20 years. One bidder followed me all the way up so I guess they wanted it almost as badly as me.

Good discussion by the way guys.

David

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on May 06, 2009, 01:49 AM:

Well,having been in the vitage guitar market for years,I got out when people who used instruments as spec investments drove almost all musicians from the market,I'm sure the vintage car biz had the same bunch of clowns create as false value and then cut and run,kinda like baseball cards.If a film that for years sold for $25 one day on ebay find a couple of guys willing to bid $100 for it,that doesn't make the film worth that much.In the same vein,I'm sure you agree if someone paid $50,000 for a 1998 Dodge neon,all the other 98 neons are still worthless

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on May 06, 2009, 04:22 PM:

John,
Quite honestly I don't know what you are talking about.

I've been a collector for over 20 years - long before the days of ebay, and back then, you never got anything you wanted unless you knew the dealer and could get his list before it was printed. Otherwise, the people who got overnight big reel subscriptions would grab everything good.

Now - you might have to pay more for something that is on ebay if many people want it, but, you have as much chance at it as anyone else.

And finally -- why do you think that 'profit' is a dirty word? Last I checked, we (in the US and UK anyway) live in a capitalist society, not communist. People are allowed to make money. Many dealers invest a lot into film in both money and effort and deserve a return on that investment - I don't see why we should be reviled for running a business.

I repeat (and rephrase) what I said before -- with something like Big Reel or films listed at fixed prices, it's first come first served, with ebay, it's whoever is willing to pay the most - regardless of what they want the film for.

There is nothing unfair or underhanded about any of that.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on May 06, 2009, 05:08 PM:

Thing is there are good sellers and re-sellers in the hobby and on ebay etc.
Dan and Steven are a good example of that on here and its a good thing for the hobby.
But there are plenty of not so well intentioned types.

I can see Johns point.

I enjoy the hobby far more now as I have online friends and we actually give each other odd films and bits etc,involve dvds as well etc and helps it get away from the all about money feeling film can get sometimes.

Maybe that is what John is feeling.

Best Mark.

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on May 06, 2009, 05:54 PM:

Like Steve, I haven't a clue as to what you mean, John. I have bought and sold guitars going back decades. [Eek!]

There has always been a vintage market. The older and rarer, plus desirable the instrument is, the higher the dollar amount.

Collectible market value changes from year to year too. Back in 2002 Elvis films were all the rage in 16mm, then a few years pasted and the price dropped by hundreds of dollars. When buying collectibles you have to be savvy and patient. As far as talking film with fellow collectors, the internet has connected the whole world. I've made friends in several countries. [Cool]

Mark, thanks for the plug. [Big Grin]

Also, Mark Todd is great Ebay seller. My best trailers(super8 and 16mm) were bought from Mark, Thanks.

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on May 06, 2009, 06:19 PM:

I agree about a basic fact: there are good and bad sellers everywhere, not only thinking about collectibles.

Dan and Steven are totally right: collectible market is like the wind, changing in every moment. I think each of us has spent, at least once, a lot of money for this or that title. Maybe after a 15/20 years waiting. So what? The result is very clear: people who are totally not interested in super 8 (or in collectibles in general) see the possibility to make money. And they do what WE want them to do: they sell (or re-sell hoping to make a profit). And they finally do that thanks to people like we are who, for one short or a full feature, are able to spend an absordity of money.

In two words: sometimes what we complain for is probably the result of our mistakes (even if I'm not so sure it is a real mistake).

Nothing to complain with Ebay. Selling and buying (and taking advantage), business in a word, has been like that since the man exists and trades!

I agree with Dan: of course what I buy from Ebay is not always golden (probably because we all have different points of view thinking about the same print, maybe good or very good in my opinion, and totally bad for the rest of the community), but I actually know people from everywhere, sharing with me this great passion. That I share with you all too.

This is just my point of view, of course.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on May 06, 2009, 06:42 PM:

Steve,

I disagree with you, but only on one point.

It isn't always a fair playing field with ebay. When you get one of these a**holes who has one of those bid programs (that allows them and only them to win an item), you don't stand a shot.

What I do in those cases is, when I dentify one of them, (and there are some somewhat reliable signs of this), I will bid that badboy WAY up, (as those bid "fixers" bet on the poor bloke who doesn't have bid fixing to tire of it quickly and not bid it up), and so if they want to CHEAT (and that is my personal opinion, as it takes the very nature of bidding and winning something out of the equation), they will damn well pay out the a** to get it!

The very nature of ebay is to annialate the true value of items. This, on the plus side, allows for rediculous bargains at times, and at other times, allows for outrageously over-valued items.

But there is one under-lying truth. The bidder, is in the end, responsible for how much or how little something sells for.

... and the shrewd bidder, knowing his item, can really clean up on ebay!

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on May 06, 2009, 06:58 PM:

Osi, I have never been outbid by a bid programme if I really want the item. Yes they can bid later than my last second bids, but they can only bid up to the maximum the buyer wants them to.

I once wanted a film that went for $35.00, there was a last second bid that took if from around $15.00 up to this. I was prepared to pay more and put a maximum bid of well over $150.00. No bid programme was ever going to beat me unless they specified a maximum higher than mine.

I have no issues with ebay's bidding process and how films are listed and sold. There are however dishonest users that you come across from time to time.

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on May 06, 2009, 06:59 PM:

I'm confused Osi - What bidding programs are you talking about? Snipe software? There is nothing unfair about snipe software - a) anyone can use it and b) even with snipe software, the person who bids the most always wins - no matter if they bid on day 1, or the last 10 seconds.

The key is whoever bids the most is the winner.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on May 06, 2009, 07:04 PM:

Come to think of it, I suppose your right. Still seems slightly inappropriate.

By the way, YES! A nice rousing series of posts!

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on May 06, 2009, 07:06 PM:

Osi wrote........

quote:
The very nature of ebay is to annialate the true value of items. This, on the plus side, allows for rediculous bargains at times, and at other times, allows for outrageously over-valued items.

Osi, you should know better than that. The true nature of Ebay is it is a venue for auctions and stores. It is the nature of bidders to bid an item as high as they chose too. Not one is forcing them.

Steve S. wrote....

quote:
The key is whoever bids the most is the winner. ]

I think that sums it up. No pun intented. [Big Grin]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on May 06, 2009, 10:36 PM:

Couldn't resist to write.

The only unfair situation on Ebay bid is bid shilling (asking friends or using another Ebay ID to bid more and more for higher ending price).

The other situation e.g. misleading description, covering some aspects and etc although these are not right but can be actually judged from buyer's view by having seen the feedback, photos, the wordings, etc.

I am also interested with John's opinion that 8mm price is getting higher and higher nowadays because of those taking profit. Although the price is getting higher today may be part of that situation but don't forget the economic basic principles that inflation rate also contributes to the increase.

Not because of people making profit but the price of an ounce gold in 1974 is much lower than today's. The price of oil does also increase.

So, by having seen this, you may see that the amount does increase today, but THE VALUE may not (if the inflation rate formula is used).

regards,

Posted by John W. Black (Member # 1082) on May 07, 2009, 12:01 AM:

Wow,many points here! First,the people with the last minute auto bid software are everything thats wrong about ebay. The bottom line is this,once it was about the film,now it's about the money.In the pre net days,Steve,I used to get dozens of film lists in the mail from collectors and dealers every week,I never had to rely on the magazines for my film.I do enjoy this forum because without it,there would be no contact between the collectors,which is what makes the hobby fun.But everyone here,if you were completly honest,would admit that ebay and it's policies leave much to be desired. I would love to see some film ads in ioffer.com.It's a free sight.You take an ad,list the price you want and people can counter offer. That is so much more fair,but,alas,the quest for every dollar possible will prevent that from happening. In closing,I used to buy 16mm films from a local guy who sold out of his basement.He had the best prices around.People from all over the country came to his house.They bought for their collections and nobody was there to boot the prices up.Sorry,but I miss that and if I had my chioce on how I got my films,I would gladly go back to the ways it used to be.Also,Dan,if you did vintage guitar,you'll surly remember going to the guitar cons and finding 90% of the customers from overseas.The bought as investments and drove many people out.Of course,rather than being true collectors,they made guitars a financial investment like silver,baseball cards,antique furniture and the like.Of course now the problem we have in the guitar industry is that many of these forthright people are now conterfeiting these classic guitars by the thousand,don't believe me? look in ioffer.That sad thing is,in all hobbies,ours included,it's about the money first,and it's pricing lots of us out.I hope somehow some of you will understand.
The end

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on May 07, 2009, 01:23 AM:

I see this as mostly a numbers game.
Instead of the 30-50 sellers that would mail out regular lists, now you have hundreds of sellers, and it seems like with many of them you never quite know what type of film you'll receive which might be adding to the frustration (Not too mention that apparently on ebay they can rip people off and them just pop up again with a new moniker)...I think you'd agree John there are still MANY honest sellers like Dan and Steven (whom I personally have had good transactions with each), and let's face it they all have to be resellers these days, since almost no one is making new prints.
If ebay bothers you then stick with the folks at Derann, CHC, The Reel Image and the few folks that are still trying to maintain the "old way" because I am sure they can use the help from people buying the new prints they offer.

And with ebay I would just check the forums before buying from any seller that worries you, but keep in mind that unless the film being offered is Slipping Wives or Popeye meets Ali Baba it will probably show up again from a seller you trust
[Smile]

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on May 07, 2009, 01:28 PM:

John,

Ebay is part of the hobby these days - like its ways or not. But, you're kinda making it sound like it's the only game in town.
There are still dealers who don't get involved with Ebay. You can deal directly with them on here, or on the 16mm forums. I have come to know a lot of dealers personally just through people I know on these forums. Most of the prints I buy are through these people. I rarely buy prints for my own collection on Ebay, though I occasionally buy small collections on Ebay with the express intention of turning a profit on resale. By this means I help fund the hobby for myself. I have absolutely no qualms about doing so. I'm never dishonest with anybody in these transactions. It's business and the bigger the profit the better as far as I'm concerned - that is the reason I do it. Profit is NOT a dirty word.
I have also given away prints for nothing on occasion.
There are still film conventions as far as I can see - Ealing, Blackpool, Cinevent, Cinefest, etc.
If you're unhappy with Ebaythen you shouldn't use it. There are plenty of other options - maybe not as many as there used to be in the Big Reel heyday, but they are there.

Happy Collecting.

-Mike

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on May 07, 2009, 04:16 PM:

Though they are the only ones mentioned, Dan and Steve aren't the only honest or reliable ones. To my best knowledge, I have never mis-stated the state of any print that I have sold or, never on purpose, left out something that was wrong with a print intentionally.

In truth, there are probabaly far more good honest sellers, ebay or otherwise, than dis-honest. I have only ran into one commerical re-seller (a person who is specifically in the business of film selling), that has three times burned me, and I was surprised that I gave that person every chance. Never again.

But he was the one exception. I don't count ebay sellers as most aren't professional sellers. (respectfully omitting Dan and others who ARE professional). [Big Grin]

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on May 07, 2009, 06:12 PM:

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"Feel da' love." [Big Grin]

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2