8mm Forum: Suggest: don't lub your films by an oily matter

This is topic Suggest: don't lub your films by an oily matter in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004582

Posted by Ugo Grassi (Member # 139) on June 06, 2009, 06:59 PM:

I just bought a second hand Derann copy of Bambi. I noticed it was cleaned by an oil or oily matter. I don't know who was the earlier owner, so I don't know what liquid is on. Anyway I know this:
About 10 years ago I knew a guy who sell old italian prints in Naples.
He told me the best way to clean the film is to use the paraffin[read footnote], also mixed with a solvent like the gasoline for lighters.
I began to use that mixture and the results appeared very good. The little scratches disappered and the films seemed to run softly in the projector.
I projected my films lubricated by the paraffin for a year about. Sometimes I noticed some "raindrops" on the screen, but ...I couldn't care less!
The Elmo I used in that time was new, just like a machine new in the store.
One day - one year later - I was cleaning and inspecting my GS1200 when I noticed (by my finger nail)a notch under the pin of the claw! (right that notch you can see in the service manual, like signal to change the claw).
I think (in according with the opinion of an old and very expert technician) the reason of the pin short life was in the paraffin.
Sure enough the adhesive power of the liquid paraffin (and many oily matters) is more than the lubricating power.
Every oil to reduce the friction needs to work by a layer of oil between two parts in movement. The paraffin we can leave on the film isn't enough to make a layer between film and stell (pressure plate, film path). Anyway it's enough to work like an adhesive.
So my suggest is: don't use oily liquids to clean/lub your films, except for the silicon oil. A mixture of 5% ca. in a solvent (right for the films) doesn't get greasy the film. Kodak lubs the films for the cameras by the silicon.

Note: the italian name of that liquid was "vasellina". I bought it in pharmacy. I think it was liquid paraffin for pharmaceutical and cosmetic purposes. It was transparent and smell less.

Posted by Panayotis A. Carayannis (Member # 1220) on June 07, 2009, 03:30 PM:

Both paraffin and vaseline are byproducts of petrol.The first, usually sold in pharmacies as "paraffin oil" is a transparent rather thick liquid while the second is a white thick cream. Both are good for the skin (the former is also a good laxative !) , but not for the film. They are "oily" and can leave stains everywhere, plus the "sticky" problems you mentioned. The "method" you describe was perhaps used as a cheap alternative by cinema projectionists,since 35mm prints were destined for an x number of showings and afterwards were supposed to be destroyed and ,in addition,35mm projectors,being bigger and harder,weren't bothered by this problem. But,for the smaller formats it is a no-no.

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on June 08, 2009, 01:03 AM:

It's been told that bars of solid paraphin were used to rub the side of 35mm rolls of films in order to lubricate them.

I guess Ugo's expose (good to see you again here, amico) is also a good reminder that one needs to inspect and clean the filmpath and gate regularly.

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on June 08, 2009, 01:48 AM:

We still edge wax all of our B/W 35mm prints at the archive i work for prior to screenings and after they have been cleaned. The key is they are on cores at that point which to the best of my knowledge few small gauge films ever are, so it seems to me it would be more of a hassle to edge wax super 8 anyway. Either way Jean-Marc makes the point, if you put something on the film or you don't the key is keep the film path (especially the gate) clean. I hate to say but my biggest nemesis is pet hair. It seems that stuff can float around and get anywhere, so I am constantly paranoid about build up in the film path, and clean after most every short.

Posted by Flavio Stabile (Member # 357) on June 08, 2009, 10:56 AM:

Ciao Ugo!

Could it be that your BAMBI was cleaned with other lubricant like Film Guard or Film Renew?
I got some time ago a Derann print too that was lubricated with some liquid and even using a lot 'benzina' like AVIO I was not able to completely remove it... Then I was told it was lubricated with Film Guard that should be more persistent.

Ciao,
Flavio!

PS. Have you already re-recorded it in Italian? [Wink]

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on June 08, 2009, 11:19 AM:

Ugo, Flavio, I have bought a couple of used prints with the same 'problem'. After trying to remove this 'oily' matter from the first reel, I gave up. And I was told too they were probably lubrificated using such a product like the Film Guard.

Posted by Ugo Grassi (Member # 139) on June 09, 2009, 05:19 AM:

quote from Kodak's site:
Lubrication
All motion-picture films destined for projection are required some level of lubrication. The lubricant incorporated in some 8 mm or 16 mm films may be sufficient, even after processing. Since all films may not be lubricated, it should be done to assure a smoother projection. Most laboratories do apply a lubricant when necessary. Caution: Solvent film cleaners or lubricants require adequate ventilation and avoidance of prolonged contact with skin. If these precautions cannot be met, employ a professional firm to clean and lubricate the films. Also, local municipal codes must be strictly adhered to in using and disposing of any solvents.

Theatrical 35 mm release prints require considerably higher levels of lubrication to provide trouble-free performance during projection nuns. Since the required amount of lubricant is excessive for overall application, it is applied to the perforated film edges only on the emulsion side. During windup, some of the lubricant transfers to the film edges on the support side. The edge-wax solution consists of 50 grams of paraffin wax dissolved into 1 1itre of inhibited 1.1.1 Trichloroethane and is usually applied by a special edge-waxing machine. For more information, refer to the SMPTE Recommended Practice, RP151-1989, Lubricatlon, Print.

To lub the films by an oily matter is raccomanded by Kodak and SMPTE. Anyway this is right for the 35 mm only. The "forces in play" are different and different is the mechanism to move the film. The Geneva (or Maltese) cross is more resistant then our claw for a lot of reasons. Every tooth is able to support an higher pressure where it engages the hole, as regards what the claw is able to do.
A lubricant right for the 35mm isn't sure right for a smaller format.
Anyway I don't know what is the liquid on the film. I know only it's an oily matter...

[ June 09, 2009, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: Ugo Grassi ]

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on June 10, 2009, 01:24 AM:

Good to hear from you again, Ugo! [Smile]

How did your home cinema turn out?

Cheers
Lars

Posted by Ugo Grassi (Member # 139) on June 10, 2009, 02:29 PM:

Hello Lars,
It's almost finished! Just some light works and it will be like a dream (my personal dream, of coyrse).

Posted by David Erskine (Member # 1244) on June 10, 2009, 02:45 PM:

Derek (Simmonds of Derann) used GenKleen to make sure prints were clean before striping - and he always told me to lube them (I use CrestaClean - now called CresClene - from CHC) and it really does make a difference. Tony Shapps (of Widescreen Centre) also said freshly processed film needed lubrication or it could catch in the gate and scratch. Older films, IMHO (I've waited AGES to use that!), need a gentle clean and lube every so often to preserve & protect. Cheers, David E

Posted by Lars Pettersson (Member # 762) on June 10, 2009, 02:56 PM:

Ugo

Any pictures? [Smile]

Cheers
Lars

Posted by Roy Neil (Member # 913) on June 10, 2009, 08:02 PM:

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004055#000004

FilmGuard is what I use to clean and lubricate films - I wont use anything else.

I use FilmRenew for heavy duty cleaning, but I use FilmGuard everytime I run film. I use the film cleaner mounted on my projector and it cleans/lubes as I project. My projector stays amazingly clean; especially the gate and the magnetic sound heads. I also dont have to stop the projector to pluck hair out of the aperture anymore.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on June 10, 2009, 10:37 PM:

Around ten plus years ago, I purchased a
film cleaner from Derann, but cannot
recall the products' name?

It was sold in a red painted metal can,
and had a distinct camphor smell.

After an application, the film became very supple and it
was silent as it passed through the gate.

If anyone has used this, please share
your ideas? Is it still being sold?

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 10, 2009, 11:07 PM:

Hey, I'm back!

(Boo Hiss! Aww, gee folks!)

My question is, (though I do the same film cleaning things), could not the film gate and all areas associated with the film path become, "gooped up" or, to put it better, over saturated with these film cleaners, that it could potentially, in the future, perhaps harm the films or projectors in the future?

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on June 11, 2009, 12:13 AM:

Michael
It was called "Thermofilm" came in a 250ml can. I bought it from Derann and used it for years excellent product. Its no longer available.

Osi
I was thinking that myself, [Roll Eyes]

I only ever clean a film "first time" and thats it, unless its jumpy and needs a lube I leave it alone, and as long as the projector is kept "really clean" I dont see the need to keep cleaning them, not sure if the old stripe likes it either, most of my films were done with "Thermofilm" when they were first bought, many now around 20 plus years old and still run and look good. I guess its up to the individual if they want to keep doing it, myself I would be a bit wary of a possible long term effect.

Graham.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on June 11, 2009, 03:01 AM:

I really cannot understand why people feel the need to run their prints through Filmguard during every screening.
In a theatrical situation I can understand its use in this fashion when a print is being run several times a day - but, not at home.
As far as I can see, nothing is to be achieved. If a print needs cleaning, clean it, then leave it alone.

-Mike

Posted by Roy Neil (Member # 913) on June 11, 2009, 05:48 AM:

Michael - I use FilmGuard with a film cleaner on all my projectors and I dont run in a theater environment, just for myself.

I dont bathe my films in FilmGuard with each showing, I use the film cleaner - so its applied very sparingly

I first ran film with no cleaner - and scrubbed the gate between each reel - picked hair out of the gate during a reel - listened to the clackity clack as the projector 'dragged' the film through the gate - scrubbed the magheads clean of all the mag stripe it was accumulating ( hey wait isnt that what holds my sound on the film ? )

Then I obtained a 35mm Kelmar cleaner and installed it on my Simplex. I was astonished how quietly the film ran through the projector; I was amazed how clean the gate remained from reel to reel; I was elated at how my films were cleaned automatically each time I watched them; I was ecstatic to see base scratches slowly evaporate and become transparent with each screening.

Of course if you have never experienced this you certainly will have no idea what you are missing.

I liked it so much I made the same cleaner for 16mm and Super8 - and I wont run film without them.

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 1337) on June 11, 2009, 06:52 AM:

Would you be able to share the plans for your 8 & 16mm versions of the Kelmar?

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on June 11, 2009, 09:13 AM:

Plans? Damien, our own Roy Neil has them for sale, if I'm not mistaken. E-mial Roy and he'll give you all the info ... am I right, Roy, Ole man?

(I speak as a codger of 43 myself!) [Smile]

Posted by Roy Neil (Member # 913) on June 11, 2009, 04:52 PM:

Once again ....

Osi is right [Smile]

I have just begun shipping out units and so far everyone loves it as much as I do.

The fact that Im selling a box thats worth more than double what they are paying for it likely adds to their satisfaction [Smile]

Posted by Dino Everette (Member # 1378) on June 11, 2009, 04:56 PM:

Roy was still waiting to hear back from you regarding the cleaner you can use my email aytab at aol dot com

Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on June 11, 2009, 07:32 PM:

I've noticed that Castle and Universal 8's never need lubrication to run smoothly. This applies to ones I pick up on ebay as well as to ones I've had for over 30 years. Blackhawks that I bought 30+ years ago new never need lubrication. Ones I pick up an eBay invariable do. Some need several coats before running smoothly -- and sometimes a few weeks later they need it again. Any theories why?

I use an Elmo ST1200-HD -- very finicky with film. I know the tension on the pressure plate plays a factor -- anyone know how to properly adjust for smooth running? But as I said the Castles run fine.

thanks

Posted by Roy Neil (Member # 913) on June 11, 2009, 08:20 PM:

There is no tension adjustment for the ST1200 gate pressure, other than fiddling with the tiny springs themselves.

If your lower loop isnt big enough you will see a lot of vertical jitter. Hold down the loop restore and it should straighten out.

If thats not it make sure your gate is clean - especially the side guides, they need to move very freely.

Dino - I have your email here will send you an update

Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on June 11, 2009, 09:47 PM:

I've fiddled with the springs -- is it better to have more pressure or less? Most of my films run fine -- very steady picture. A small percentage do not -- maybe they need a good soak in FilmRenew -- one I got last week I've made about 3 passes with FilmRenew -- jittery picture -- lower loop is fine. Could it be that the film has shrunken? I've never had one that didn't project smoothly immediately after lubrication -- wet-gating, so to speak. It is a Blackhawk on 60's Eastman stock.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on June 11, 2009, 10:27 PM:

Interesting case, and wondering
if the film has too much lubrication.

I once used Surfaset. A very good silicone product,
but too much on the film would make the print jitter in the gate.

Posted by Roy Neil (Member # 913) on June 11, 2009, 11:02 PM:

Its best to have as little pressure as needed to stabilize the image - which is probably why Elmo didnt include any adjustments for the operator.

FilmRenew is a terrific cleaner, very aggressive, cuts gunk fast. It contains wax. Wax is used on surfboards to make your feet stick and not slide. Sneakers squeak like mad on a freshly waxed floor. Edge waxing cuts down on 'Edge Wear' and the wax is only on the THIN edges .. not the entire surface area of the film. Edge waxing ( and I stress edge ) is or was used in the industry for theater projection - but if you go to your local AMC today they dont edge wax, they run a Kelmar cleaner and use FilmGuard.

FilmGuard cleans film very well but not as aggressively as FilmRenew. FilmGuard is superior to FilmRenew in terms of lubrication and contains NO wax. FilmGuard is 'so' slippery that if you get too much on the print... you cant clean it. You cant get enough friction between the cleaning media and the film. In fact, too much FilmGuard on the print will result in jitter during projection - the film continues moving and gets 'flung' by the claw after it retracts ( but you have to use a LOT of FilmGuard to make that happen )

I use FilmRenew for hand cleaning tough spots like dried tape, marking pen, etc

I use FilmGuard with Kelmar ( 35mm ) and Film-O-Clean ( 16 / S8 ) for cleaning/lubing as I project. I can also mount it between my rewinds to clean on the bench if needed.

Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on June 12, 2009, 04:53 PM:

thanks -- Maybe it does have too much filmrenew on it. One thing I noticed is that the first cleaning didn't remove much dirt -- so maybe the ebay seller already cleaned it. I usually watch a newly-purchased film first to determine if it needs cleaning or lubing or not -- this time I cleaned first. Maybe a mistake.

Posted by Tony Stucchio (Member # 519) on June 14, 2009, 08:09 PM:

Ran film through a cloth to remove any excess Film Renew. Film ran worse. Kept losing the loop. Ran a different film -- OK, but I thought there was a little unsteadiness (up and down) than the usual rock solid picture I have been getting for years -- though nothing horrible. Then I remembered -- a couple of weeks ago I increased the tension in the take-up arm. I decreased the tension -- the trouble film ran much better -- but not perfect -- though didn't lose the loop. Other "normal" film ran rock steady. Ran the trouble film through a Eumig -- perfect! Probably needs a little Film Renew (again -- but I wiped it all off) for the Elmo -- which is more finicky than the Eumig.

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2