8mm Forum: A Curiosity about "Black Sunday"

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 25, 2010, 06:13 PM:

There is a "supposed" feature print of Black Sunday on ebay right now. It has nine days left as of this posting. there is only one shot and that is of the boxes. The seller states that it is a 4X400ft feature. That alone tells me that it is not a full feature, but the boxes seem to make it look like this seller just got ahold of a bunch of parts and not a full 4X400ft edited feature, as the first box, on top, says "400ft selected scenes edition". I also notice that the top box and the third box have the same cover illustration on top. Curious.

Now, did marketing just use the same boxes for the 400ft selected scene version and use them to house the edited versions, or is this guy selling a fraud? Could anybody who owns this spoecific title comment? Sorry, I don't have the knowledge to create a link.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 25, 2010, 06:22 PM:

Osi,

According to IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075765/

Black Sunday is 143 minutes.

There is no any possibility that this film will fit into 4 reels. The maximum of 400' reel is 20 minutes, making 4 reels to become 80 minutes.

You see what I mean. [Wink]

Posted by Lance Alspaugh (Member # 27) on January 25, 2010, 06:50 PM:

This appears to be the 3 part Abridged along with the 400 ft digest that the seller is offering, not the full feature indeed.

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on January 25, 2010, 07:04 PM:

I'm pretty sure the 3 X 400' version box covers are three seperate pictures.

Bill

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on January 25, 2010, 07:24 PM:

Osi,

Lance and Bill are correct. The box numbers in the photo are 410-1, 410-2 and 410-3, which is the three part edition. The top box is 410-4, which is the 400' selected scene edition. Marketing use the same artwork for 410-2 and 410-4.
The 3x400' is very well edited. "Black Sunday" is one of my favorite films and I have all the versions.

Winbert,

Using thinner stock Marketing was able to release the 110 minute "Grease" on 4 400' reels.

Doug

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 25, 2010, 07:40 PM:

I figured it was too good to be true. How has the color held up on your seperate versions of the film Doug?

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on January 25, 2010, 08:01 PM:

I haven't looked at the 200' or 400' editions lately, but the feature's color is good. The 3x400' has the best color.

Doug

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 25, 2010, 08:30 PM:

quote:
Using thinner stock Marketing was able to release the 110 minute "Grease" on 4 400' reels

Yes certainly Doug, as you say, Grease is ONLY 110 minutes, while Black Sunday is 143 minutes. There is 33 minutes different, making 4 reels will not be possible in any type of stock. It has to be 35 minutes for every 400' reel (which is quite impossible) to get 140 minutes in 4 reels, and we still get short of 3 minutes. [Wink]

quote:
How has the color held up on your seperate versions of the film

Osi, having seen the box type, that is from early Marketing films (NY based). If you have "Raiders" you know how mostly the Marketing box is.

But the early one is different, it is more like a book keeper. The box is slightly bigger than the later ones. I have one like this (Godfather) and the color is totally washed out. I believe the early releases were on Eastman instead of Kodak SP that mostly later Marketing releases.

So beware.

cheers,

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on January 25, 2010, 08:53 PM:

Winbert,

You are absolutely right. I was pointing out that it is possible to get more than 20 minutes on a reel. When I first got the Marketing "Grease" I thought I had been ripped off because of the 4 reels. It also came in a Marketing feature box that was big enough to hold 8 reels.

Doug

Posted by Greg Marshall (Member # 1268) on January 25, 2010, 09:41 PM:

I contacted this seller yesterday about how the color is holding up... he states he does not have a projector, but when he ran the print 5 YEARS ago, "it seemed fine then, if I remember".

I wrote him back and suggested he roll out the leader and look at the frames up to a light source, as color can change dramatically in 5 years.

I have not heard from him.

So, I've written him again, and brought to his attention about the running time of the feature, and what seems to be represented in his picture does not reflect a full feature. I suggested that he end the auction and relist, as he's misrepresenting the item. (Thanks, Doug.... I did not look that closely at the artwork, and I'm interested in having this film.)

So maybe he'll do the right thing and do this. I know I'd be P-O'd, if I thought I was buying the full feature, and this showed up.

Oh, and I have the thin-based Grease print as well.... From running this film back in the 78, and 79, I remember specifically the end of each theatrical reel. A full theatrical reel can hold 2000 feet of film, and this relates to 19-20 minutes. The first reel of the polyprint of Grease has the first two theatrical reels on that one reel. With an average running time of, usually 17-18 minutes per theatrical reel, it is possible to have 34-36 minutes (maybe a little more) on a full polyreel. So, I'm thinking four FULL reels could probably accomodate the running time of 143 minutes of Black Sunday, if it were on the poly stock. (Doug, does that sound right?) BUT, this is not the full feature this guy is selling, looking closer at the artwork.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 25, 2010, 10:05 PM:

quote:
it is possible to have 34-36 minutes (maybe a little more) on a full polyreel.

Greg, to be honest, I don't really get what you are talking...

Are you saying that 7 inch reels can accommodate 35 minutes of super 8mm thins stock ??

35 minutes is 700 feet film and.... fit in 7 inch reel??? [Confused]

I fully understand that poly is a thin stock but as far a I knew it is 30% thinner than acetate. But you are talking much-much thinner. What stock is that?

Posted by Greg Marshall (Member # 1268) on January 25, 2010, 10:14 PM:

Hi Winbert.... yes, it is true. Marketing used this very thin stock for the 4-reel/full-length Grease. It is of the nearly non-breakable stock, which I'm calling polyester... could be called Mylar. (Doug, is this correct terminology here, for this thin stock that Marketing used?)

I was surprised too, Winbert. When I collected back in the '90's, I bought a print of Grease.... 4 reels comes in a metal can, and just like Doug, I thought I had been ripped off, with 2 reels missing (Grease was 6 reels, theatrically). So I ran the print, and noticed after twenty minutes had passed, that I had quite a bit of film left on the reel, and that took it on through the theatrical reel 2. So, the whole feature was there, just less reels than normal. Soon after that, I learned this was a much thinner stock, and I'm guessing a cost-saving effort for Marketing, after all, this was the very-early 80's.... VHS had already surfaced, and I'm sure they saw the writing on the wall with the profits.

Sorry I wasn't clear, Winbert... hope this helps.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 25, 2010, 10:32 PM:

quote:
I was surprised too, Winbert. When I collected back in the '90's, I bought a print of Grease.... 4 reels

Greg, as Doug's case above, you are talking Grease, which is 110 minutes duration. While this topic is about Black Sunday with 143 duration.

So I fully understand (and I believe you too) that 4 * 7" reels can accommodate an uncut Grease. But there is no any chance for 143 minutes of film (an uncut Black Sunday) in 4 * 7" reels, since this needs one reel to accommodate 700" film which is impossible. Unless you are talking a much thinner stock from the poly stock we know so far. Is there? [Confused]

thanks

Posted by Greg Marshall (Member # 1268) on January 25, 2010, 10:40 PM:

Doug, how is your print made up? 7 or 8 reels, or did they use the thin stock? Chime in on this poly stock... is it thinner than other polyester stock?

2-3 of the 4 Grease reels weren't all the way full... one was, to the edge. You may not get the entire 143 of Black Sunday on 4 reels, but close. Easily, a theatrical reel can run up to 20 minutes. I'd need to time the first polyreel of Grease, but feel quite sure, it's around 35-36 minutes. For Black Sunday, they'd be full reels for sure, but not impossible.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 25, 2010, 11:18 PM:

quote:
but feel quite sure, it's around 35-36 minutes

At least so far I find in this forum and also from this site it says:

quote:
Polyester film is not as vulnerable to vinegar syndrome as acetate film and it's not as easily scratched. Plus it's 1/3 thinner, meaning you get more feet per movie reel.

So it is around 30% to 33 1/3% (to be exact) thinner than acetate stock. So for 400' (acetate standard) reel, it can accommodate max. 533 feet or eqv. to 26 - 28 minutes of polyester films. For me, 35 minutes in 7 inch reel is the way too far, no matter what stock is that.

Posted by Greg Marshall (Member # 1268) on January 25, 2010, 11:44 PM:

Hmmm, it must be a thinner stock then, as I know that first reel of Grease runs 35-36 minutes.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 26, 2010, 01:07 PM:

At any rate, this Black Sunday print on the ebay auction has been verified as a 3X400ft version with the addition of the 400ft selected scene addition. It would be nice if the 400ft version had a scene or two not in the 3X400ft, but that is kind of doubtful.

On a side note, I now wonder how long of a running time my Raiders of the Lost Fart (haha) is, as it always seemed like it was longer than your average digest? It is a nice fairly full reel.

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on January 26, 2010, 01:27 PM:

Would the thickness of polyester stock have anything to do with color fade? If was thinner, would it fade sooner or hold the colors longer? Or does it really make a difference at all?

These comments on the first print of Grease full length got me wondering.

-cg-

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