8mm Forum: GS-1200 Sync Question

This is topic GS-1200 Sync Question in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005291

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on February 20, 2010, 06:49 PM:

I vaguely remember reading a post on the forum years ago about synchronizing the GS-1200 pulse signal to a computer in order to sync the sound from a DVD to the film. Does anyone have any info on how to do this? I have cable with the multi-prong that fits the pulse out on the GS-1200 on one end and a parallel computer port on the other

Posted by Flavio Stabile (Member # 357) on February 21, 2010, 01:20 PM:

Hello Dan,

I remember very well this post and I found it for you:

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001956# 000000

I got crazy in getting it working, but it finally worked!
It was a real genius idea from Joerg Niggemann.

However I still continue to use the Pedro Box to re-record my movies.

Bye
Flavio

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on February 22, 2010, 03:00 AM:

Just get yourself a Pedro box and save yourself all the hassle of trying to sort something special out.

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on February 22, 2010, 10:13 AM:

Also try FFR Filmtechnik in Germany they also sell sync units,Mark.

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on February 22, 2010, 12:06 PM:

John Clancy

quote:

Just get yourself a Pedro box and save yourself all the hassle of trying to sort something special out.

John,

Have you tried the computer syncing method that Joerg used?

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on February 23, 2010, 03:26 AM:

I don't need to. Why would I need to do something complicated when I have a simple method? I understand there is a financial saving for syncing up NTSC material using a PC but that's immaterial in England.

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on February 23, 2010, 05:00 PM:

John,

Why is it immaterial in England? That is like saying "why go to the hassle of repairing your own projector when you can pay someone else to repair it". I thought Joerg's discovery was a brilliant idea using a computer program. If interfaced with a computer software one could really work with the sound in order to achieve superb results.

[ February 23, 2010, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Dan Lail ]

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on February 23, 2010, 08:50 PM:

Dan,

Best of luck on your re-record. I remember thinking that Joerg's idea was remarkable when he first posted it.

Like John, I'm happy using the Wolfgang (Pedro) NTSC P1008GS pro model.

Doug

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on February 24, 2010, 02:57 AM:

Come on Dan, you've been on this forum a long time...

PAL is the standard in England; NTSC is the standard in the USA. PAL runs at 25fps whereas NTSC runs at 23.9???. It is therefore easy to sync' PAL sourced video to film but difficult to do the same with NTSC. Pedro learned this early on when I purchased his standard box and confirmed it didn't work with NTSC. This was because it was locked to 24fps and therefore slightly too fast for NTSC sync. He then went off and developed a new box which did work. It's more expensive than the standard box but saves all the hassle of having to connect anything else other than this single box. It's a brilliant solution and if you're lucky enough to have one you'll never want to resort to anything else again.

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on February 24, 2010, 11:57 AM:

John,

Yes I have been on this forum for a long time.

Yes I am aware of Pal, NTSC, various speeds and all of Pedro's boxes and their costs.

I am also aware that Joerg Niggemann has been on this forum a long time and am very interested in his discovery of the use of computer software for syncing a GS-1200.

Joerg says;

"Sync signals for every speed (16 2/3, 18, 24, 25 fps) can be generated with nearly every sound editor program."

John C said...

quote:
It's more expensive than the standard box but saves all the hassle of having to connect anything else other than this single box. It's a brilliant solution and if you're lucky enough to have one you'll never want to resort to anything else again.

I don't think having one of Pedro's boxes is a matter of luck. Also my computer and editing software were not obtained by means of luck. I can understand your not trying to sync with a computer because you already have a sync box, but others may find the computer method of interest and it may not be a hassle at all.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on February 24, 2010, 12:02 PM:

Let us know how you get on Dan but you're possibly trying to reinvent the wheel when sync' pulse was mastered years ago. If you're DVD player has PAL capability you can do it for next to nothing.

Posted by John Davis (Member # 1184) on February 24, 2010, 12:31 PM:

Hi John,
isn't ntsc at 29.87fps rather than 23.?? fps

Posted by Joerg Niggemann (Member # 611) on February 24, 2010, 03:18 PM:

Dan, I can only encourage you to try it if you are interested.
After 4 years, I can say that I'm still using digital sound devices as crystal sync source for the GS and don't want to have anything else. A computer generated sync signal and a cable to connect headphone or line outputs to the GS is required. But once that first step is done, you have several options, even without PC. Here are two examples what you could do:

Build your own Pedro Box (very easy):

Burn your generated sync sound file to a CD. Play it back with a Discman, CD or DVD Player or other device. Connect the GS ESS input to Line or Headphone output and your Discman etc. will become a Pedro Box. Change from PAL to NTSC Sync by changing the CD/DVD. You could even think of coding your sync file into mp3 and play it back with an mp3 player. And voila, you have a "Mini Pedro Box".

Comfortable re-recording with PC (rough description of a quite complex but very quick workflow, additional Software required):

When re-recording a print, my PC provides the DVD movie with desired soundtrack(s), a digital copy of the S8 print (dv-avi file taken with camcorder) and the sync source signal inside Adobe Premiere Pro. All work is done offline without stressing the print and GS: DVD movie and S8 print can be seen side by side in a splitscreen while scrubbing through the timeline. Differences can easily be found and eliminated without watching the whole movie and without listening to any soundtrack. In most cases, it's done with a quick look over the timeline and a few cuts in the editor. Recording to the GS will be in perfect sync. You don't have to attend the recording process.

Finally, the project is saved to a Dolby 5.1 DVD which holds

- the GS sync pulse on its center channel
- usually german dub on front left/right channels
- original soundtrack on rear left/right channels

A DVD Player with analog 5.1 output can be used with this DVD to playback high quality dub or original soundtrack in sync with the GS (ESS input connected to center line output, Audio amplifier connected to front or rear left/right line outputs). No PC required for screening, only DVD Player and the GS.

A final word: I'm not claiming that the ESS circuit of any GS will work with any PC or DVD Audio output. But what I can say is that I've tried with three different GS Machines, Version 1 and 3 with a PC, a Laptop, several DVD player models, a Discman, a very old CD Player and different mp3 Players. There's a very good chance to get it working, but no promise that it won't be a hassle ;-)

Cheers
Joerg

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on February 25, 2010, 03:34 AM:

Joerg, I'm interested in saving this re-mastered, cut to Super 8 length on your PC version being output back as Dolby Digital 5.1. Are you able to keep the original 5.1 channels? If so, I think you've cracked something no one else using proprietary video editing software has managed and I'll certainly make good use of that!

John, the sync' speed is 23.something. That's why locking a GS to 24fps drifts out of sync' and why NTSC is more costly to sync'. I've tried all manner of pulse sync' systems over the last 15 years or so and despite having use of some very clever machinery the Pedro box offers the least hassle. It's still a hassle at times though simply because you have to sit with the projector to adjust sync' occasionally. Easily done but if you can get good stereo sound on your Super 8 stripes it's more relaxing. Some of my prints are only ever viewed sync' pulse though because of poor stripe.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 25, 2010, 06:16 AM:

quote:
A computer generated sync signal and a cable to connect headphone or line outputs to the GS is required. But once that first step is done, you have several options, even without PC.... Connect the GS ESS input to Line or Headphone output and your Discman etc. will become a Pedro Box.

Joerg, my 2 questions:

1. Although I don;t have a pedro, but my understanding so far, this box is working as a tool to keep the speed of projector in constant speed (24 fps). So we connect the box with the projector and nothing is done with the CD/DVD as the source of sound. But you are now saying to connect the Projector with CD/DVD through ESS port. So who is now taking part to keep the speed of the Projector?

2. Why by connecting ESS port to Discman will become a Mini Pedro? who is actually doing this job, the ESS or the Discman

(my understanding is a Discman and CD will run in constant speed)

thanks,

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on February 25, 2010, 08:09 AM:

I used to do something similar Winbert but by connecting the video source with the Laser disc, VHS or DVD directly to the ESS. It doesn't really matter what is used providing it puts out 25fps pulse information to the GS1200 as all video runs at the same constant speed (with the exception of the PAL/NTSC different standards of course).

ESS is the pulse input on the GS1200 and by engaging the ESS switch this then governs the speed the projector runs at.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 25, 2010, 08:53 AM:

quote:
Laser disc, VHS or DVD directly to the ESS. It doesn't really matter what is used providing it puts out 25fps pulse information to the GS120

John, thanks. I just knew that even an old VCR (VHS) can also puts out pulse information.

Really...? is that the pulse information hiden in the magnetic tape or what?

ps: I knew that magnetic tape can hide close caption information, so when we have the CC machine, the text can be screened out.

Please explain further John.

regards

Posted by Joerg Niggemann (Member # 611) on February 25, 2010, 04:29 PM:

John: The 5.1 DVD doesn't contain a 5.1 audio signal. I'm using 2 channels for a stereo soundtrack in german, 2 channels for a stereo soundtrack "original version" and the center channel as sync pulse output for the GS. Subwoofer channel is "empty".

Winbert: Every PAL Video signal contains a 25Hz frame rate pulse. However, connecting a PAL Video signal directly to the ESS port doesn't work with reliable results because there are much more frequency components inside a Video signal, from 0Hz to 5MHz. You have to filter out the frame pulse to use it with the GS. In another thread I have posted a very simple circuit which can do that job. It is helpful when transfering Film to Video, as you can achieve a real phase locked sync between camera and GS. Of course, you can also use it to sync the GS directly to a DVD Player or VHS when re-recording a soundtrack. That little circuit with a (PAL) video signal as input source also does the job of a (PAL) Pedro Box.

As John stated, it doesn't matter what is used to feed a 25 (or 23,97) Hz pulse to the ESS port of the GS. You only have to take care that amplitude and pulse form are inside certain limits. The source has to be crystal controlled (as every digital sound device or VHS recorder is).

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on February 26, 2010, 03:55 AM:

A very good explanation Joerg - thanks very much.

I have Mr. Wilton's original pulse sync' box where he filtered out everything to clean up the pulse and it works a treat (not that I've used it for some years now!). This was the box from the first publicized sync' pulse in the 80's from the pages of Movie Maker.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 26, 2010, 05:57 AM:

quote:
Every PAL Video signal contains a 25Hz frame rate pulse.

If so..why we have to spend EUR 600s for a pedro when an old VCR value of $20 can do the job [Wink]

it is a good news for us here (at least for me) !

Now, Joerg , because you have an extend knowledge about this, what do you think with a today's CD player with the capability of speed adjustment (mostly used by DJ, with sliding pitch/speed adjustment like we have on a Turntable).

If a CD player also puts out pulse information and we have problem with NTSC frame rates which lower than PAL (hence lower speed), then cannot we reduce the speed of the sound using that CDJ?

quote:
Subwoofer channel is "empty".

you can use it for director's commentary, so it is more cool ! [Cool]

cheers,

Posted by Joerg Niggemann (Member # 611) on February 26, 2010, 04:46 PM:

quote:
If a CD player also puts out pulse information and we have problem with NTSC frame rates which lower than PAL (hence lower speed), then cannot we reduce the speed of the sound using that CDJ?

NO. Any crystal sync is obsolete if you adjust speed by hand!

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on February 27, 2010, 02:38 AM:

My Pedro box only cost about £45 so I don't know about 600 Euros. You just need a PAL Pedro box Winbert and that is all you will then need - no need to build anything yourself, just plug it in to the ESS port and engage the ESS switch. No separate power supply, no nothing. Eazy peazy, lemon squeezy!

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 27, 2010, 07:41 AM:

John price is quoted from Pedro's website for the most pro equipment:

http://www.super8sync.com/super8sync/prices_%26_services.html

P 1008 M Pro Edit 629 Euro.

Anyway, even for GBP 45 ($65), even the work can be done with an old VCR why should we invest for that much [Wink]

cheers,

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on February 27, 2010, 09:03 AM:

Mine cost me 55 euro's from Germany so a big price difference to the Pedro box,Mark.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on February 27, 2010, 01:52 PM:

If you're in the PAL area you don't need the expensive Pedro box. Even if you're not and your DVD player can handle PAL discs (and multi-region coding) then you still have that option.

A VCR by itself cannot control a GS1200. You'll need a solution like Joerg's or a pulse cleanup box in between the VCR and the GS. There are other items that will do the same job (I have a Cresta VS something or the other) but the principle is the same. A Pedro box negates the need for anything else and is the best solution I've come across. We've demonstrated all manner of sync' pulse methods at the BFCC including the Pedro box which we now use exclusively. Who can forget the 'Jurassic Park' T-Rex sequence in 5.1 and THX?

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on February 28, 2010, 11:21 PM:

Joerg,

Is the square signal generated by the PC or the Sound card or the DVD when using the Adobe Premier method? Can you play a copyrighted DVD in the Adobe software program?

[ March 01, 2010, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Dan Lail ]

Posted by Joerg Niggemann (Member # 611) on March 01, 2010, 09:40 AM:

Dan, the square signal is a soundfile on my PC. It is played back

* in the Premiere timeline through the center channel of my soundcard, with the GS ESS port connected during re-recording.

* through the center channel of my DVD Player when the project is finished and put to DVD as a backup.

To use a DVD movie in the Premiere timeline, I convert it into a DV avi file. This can be done in a way that you play back the DVD on your PC and record it to avi at the same time with a freeware tool. This method is legal (at least here in Germany) because you don't touch the CSS copy protection of the DVD. Of course, there are other much faster methods, but please don't ask me...

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on March 01, 2010, 11:27 AM:

Joerg Niggemann said...

quote:
Of course, there are other much faster methods, but please don't ask me...

What's up with this??? You have answered other members when questions were asked! You are the original poster of these methods and people are interested and even complimented you on you discovery. Why should I not ask?

Posted by Joerg Niggemann (Member # 611) on March 01, 2010, 05:19 PM:

Dan, the freeware tool "xmedia recode" can transcode a DVD movie into a DV avi file which is readable in Adobe Premiere. It will only handle DVD data without copy protection. Other DVDs can be captured from the screen into avi with "hypercam" for example. Some other tools available on the net may be faster but also illegal to use, depending on your country's laws. That's why I say "don't ask me".

What I recommend is to start with a more simple setup...

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 1337) on March 01, 2010, 05:30 PM:

quote:
Why should I not ask?

It is illegal. Forums are not private.

In this case, Google is your friend.

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on March 01, 2010, 06:35 PM:

Thanks, Joerg! My apologies for misunderstanding. [Confused]

Thanks for tips and the negs. [Big Grin]

(I hope that was tech talk humor).

Thanks, Damien. Google good, Google good, Google good. I think I have it now. [Big Grin]

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2