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Author Topic: Re-recordings with a PC
Joerg Niggemann
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 127
From: Germany
Registered: May 2006


 - posted June 10, 2006 07:01 PM      Profile for Joerg Niggemann   Email Joerg Niggemann   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Looking for a cheap solution to sync the GS1200 to a DVD soundtrack, I found that a 25 Hz square signal which is played back on a PC's sound card and directly provided to the projector's ESS input via "line out" will keep the GS in sync perfectly. Sync signals for every speed (16 2/3, 18, 24, 25 fps) can be generated with nearly every sound editor program.

I just did a re-recording of "North by Northwest" and used the PC as crystal sync source and for audio/video playback with Adobe Audition. The GS then starts and stops under control of the play/stop buttons of the audio editor program. The possibility of setting cue points within the audio track is also very convenient.

Joerg

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

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From: Ohio, USA
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 - posted June 10, 2006 07:31 PM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joerg... that is a BRILLIANT idea. Using a PC's sound output as a sync source by simply playing back a square waveform... I can't believe nobody's thought of that before. Only issue I see with that is that you'll want to set the playback volume just right so the ESS input on your GS-1200 can read the signal reliably (on one hand) without being overloaded (on the other hand).

But that is simply brilliant. Well done! [Smile]

--------------------
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Kevin Faulkner
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From: Essex UK
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 - posted June 11, 2006 06:40 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Joerg, Didnt know that was possible. Please, please give more detailed info. If the original DVD was say NTSC would it then chuck out a 23.97 pulse?

This could be the answer to a few problems I have had recently. Some UK discs are actually made from NTSC masters and wont pulse sync at 25fps.

How do you get this from the soundcard to the ESS input?

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Joerg Niggemann
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 127
From: Germany
Registered: May 2006


 - posted June 11, 2006 06:44 AM      Profile for Joerg Niggemann   Email Joerg Niggemann   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jan, there was no problem adjusting the sync pulse volume. First, I set the "ESS level" on the GS to center position, then adjusted the 25 Hz volume on the PC soundcard according to the GS's "pulse meter scale". If you do the sound recording from a DVD player, you can forget the PC from that point and just set it to play the 25 Hz in a loop, because it only acts as crystal sync source. When using the PC as playback source for the soundtrack also (as I did), I must admit that I used 2 soundcards, one playing the 25 Hz signal with a fixed volume, the other one for the 2 language sound track.

Kevin, sure you can generate a 23,97 Hz pulse, I checked that with Audition. The GS will follow that frequency. To feed the pulse to the GS, you can directly connect your PC's line out left or right to pin 4 of the ESS DIN input, and line out ground to pin5 (I made an adaptor cable 3,5mm --> DIN).

Joerg

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Flavio Stabile
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From: Roma, Italia
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 - posted June 25, 2006 03:05 PM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hello!

Could someone tell me how to create the audio signal we are talking about? Which software to use?
I already own the Pedro sync box and runs perfectly, but I'm very curious about this other method, especially for the NTSC frequency my box doesn't support.

Flavio

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Jan Bister
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From: Ohio, USA
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 - posted June 25, 2006 10:03 PM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would assume that all one has to do is create a square waveform in any audio editing software of your choice, then play it in an infinite loop... getting the frequency right would be a matter of "padding" the waveform (i.e. adjusting the number of samples contained in the waveform) so that playing it back at a 44100Hz or 48000Hz sampling rate would result in a precise 25Hz (or 23.976Hz for NTSC).

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Dan Lail
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 - posted June 25, 2006 11:43 PM      Profile for Dan Lail   Author's Homepage   Email Dan Lail   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Joerg, this is a fantastic idea. More details please. Maybe a diagram for the not so computer oriented like myself. [Smile]

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Kevin Faulkner
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From: Essex UK
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 - posted June 26, 2006 01:18 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Jan, From what Joerg is saying the software is producing that pulse for you. You are getting a square wave at the right frequency depending on what origination the software is playing.

With a second soundcard in the pc you can then tell the software to put that pulse out through the second soundcard where you simply feed it into your GS's ESS input.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Flavio Stabile
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From: Roma, Italia
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 - posted June 26, 2006 03:45 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's great! I understood now and I have created a .wav audio file 1 minute long to play in loop. No problem to create the signal for 25hz. Instead I have problems for 23.976Hz, because ths software I have can only manage two decimal digits and so I have to choose between 23.97 or 23.98! Both of them are anyway wrong!

Flavio

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Kevin Faulkner
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From: Essex UK
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 - posted June 26, 2006 04:48 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Flavio, I wonder how much film you could sync at 23.97 before you would see the sync drift?

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Flavio Stabile
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From: Roma, Italia
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 - posted June 26, 2006 06:43 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, I really don't know... [Wink]

However I usually sync one reel per time (600 feet) and so I hope I will never get any trouble with sync using a NTSC DVD to re-record my film.

Instead I was thinking to another issue: how to sync the start of the two audio players in the PC, one with audio track and the other with the ESS signal?
I usually start the projector and the audio in sync using the Pedro box...

Flavio

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 26, 2006 07:11 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
In theory the PC would put out the pulse to the GS when you hit play in the programme. So if you have the GS setup to record on the first frame (waiting for ess signal) and start the PC Prog on the first frame the PC will then start the GS and all should be in sync.

Neat idea me thinks [Smile] Must now get round to trying this out myself.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Flavio Stabile
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From: Roma, Italia
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 - posted June 26, 2006 12:44 PM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not sure to have fully understood...

When you use the Pedro's box, this has one input (the audio track) and two outputs: the quartz signal for the ESS and the Audio signal for the Audio Input port.
In such a way, like you say, if you stop the projector at the exact frame you wish to start the recording, when you simply press the play on your software application, to reproduce the new audio track to be recorded, the box will start the projector, and the audio signal, coming from the PC and going through the BOX to the projector, will be then in sync with the started film.
So in this case, with one action done(pressing play in the software application) I have two effects: playing audio and starting the projector.

Let's go now to the PC software solution without the hardware box: I have two use two soundcards each of them connected to projector (ESS port and Audio Input port).
Now, if I have well understood, I have to manualy play TWO audio files: the audio signal for the ESS, and the Audio track to be recorded. My concern is how to syncronize the start of these two audio files in the PC with ONE mouse only!

Thanks,
Flavio

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Kevin Faulkner
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From: Essex UK
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 - posted June 26, 2006 04:55 PM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
I think there is some confusion here.

As you play your disc or file in the Adobe software the software will produce one pulse per frame. This it is getting form the the video pulse sync within the software.

The software has the facility to output this pulse through the sound card but as you want to record stereo sound you will use your existing soundcard for that purpose and then install a second sound card to output the sync pulse which you feed directly into the ESS socket of your GS.

When you start the video it will also start yur GS all with one mouse click. If you play an NTSC disc it will be 23.97 or 25 for Pal.

I hope I have got that right. This is my understanding of the procedure from the posts by Joerg.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Joerg Polzfusz
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From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
Registered: Apr 2006


 - posted June 27, 2006 02:00 AM      Profile for Joerg Polzfusz   Author's Homepage   Email Joerg Polzfusz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi,

just some thoughts/remarks:
On most systems the soundtrack from the DVD will be available on the DVD-player's earphone-plug, too. Hence you won't need a second soundcard.
Most never soundcards do have additional connectors for the center- and rear-speakers. Hence it should be possible to send the DVD's soundtrack to the normal stereo "left-right"-connector and the sync-signal to e.g. the surround-sound "rear speakers"-connector. No second soundcard needed, too.
NTSC-DVDs will either be shown at 23,976 fps or 29,97 fps. The 23,976 fps-speed will be problem.

Jörg

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Flavio Stabile
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Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
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 - posted June 27, 2006 06:52 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Kevin,

my first attempt to pilot the ESS port of the GS1200 with a new created square signal has failed... nothing happens, indipendentely from the level (volume) of the signal!

Furthemore I'm not even sure you can use one Audio file (the new audio track to be recorded) played in one software application to pilot two sound cards (one to produce the audio to be transferred to the projector's audio inputs and the other to pilot the ESS port of the GS1200. The software application has only one card active in one moment.

It could be interesting to hear again Joerg about the two-soundcards solution...

Flavio

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted June 27, 2006 07:08 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
To feed the pulse to the GS, you can directly connect your PC's line out left or right to pin 4 of the ESS DIN input, and line out ground to pin5 (I made an adaptor cable 3,5mm --> DIN).
Flavio
Did you use these pins on the ESS Din socket as suggested by Joerg. A std square wave pulse out from the software should work with the ESS.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted June 27, 2006 09:30 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow, this is getting complicated! [Roll Eyes]
What we need is a detailed step-by-step description that a laymen can undersatand i.e. 'Sync-pulse for dummies'.

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Joerg Niggemann
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Posts: 127
From: Germany
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 - posted June 27, 2006 08:37 PM      Profile for Joerg Niggemann   Email Joerg Niggemann   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Flavio, Kevin's comments are correct. If you want the projector to start together with the sound track by one mouse click, you need to play back both sync pulse and soundtrack from the PC out of one application. That means if your audio application is only capable of controlling one stereo channel of your soundcard(s) at a time, you will be restricted to mono sound: Sync pulse on left, mono soundtrack on right output for example. Using a more complex software like Adobe Audition or Premiere Pro and two soundcards (or one soundcard with surround capability) will allow you to play back one or two stereo soundtracks while providing the sync pulse on a different audio channel simultaneously.

For a first try with NTSC DVD soundtracks, you can go for "Cool Edit 96", which is a predecessor of Audition. Cool Edit 96 is available here

http://freeware.siebernet.de/audio/index.html

and capable of creating the square sync signal at 29.97 or 29.976 Hz. The download is only 2MB. You may also get the 30 day trial version of Audition from adobe.com, which is about 500MB.

If your projector doesn't run up in ESS mode with the soundcard connected and the windows audio mixer set to 100% volume, check for the basic amplitude of your sync pulse waveform: It should be at 0dB (full scale). Hum on the sync connection due to ground problems could also prevent the GS from running up: Try to establish a normal audio connection from the PC to the Audio AUX in of your GS and check for hum when listening to the AUX input over the projector's speakers.

Joerg

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Flavio Stabile
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Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
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 - posted June 28, 2006 03:35 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Joerg,

thank you very much for your great explanation!
For mono soundtrack: one channel with the square signal, the other with the audio track! Why didn't I think before???
I use Sonic Foundry Sound Forge 6.0 as audio editor, and I was able to create the signal at 25Hz. Indeed yesterday I made another attempt connecting the audio output (speaker out, I don't have the line out) of my pc card, but again, it failed!
Probably i need to create the signal with the max amplitude at 0 db.

Just another doubt: could you please confirm the pin numbering of the 6 mini Din ESS port is as follows?

3o o1

5o 6o o4

2o

(when you see the input in the front panel of the projector).

Thanks
Flavio

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Dan Lail
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From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
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 - posted June 28, 2006 08:36 PM      Profile for Dan Lail   Author's Homepage   Email Dan Lail   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Where do I get the Audio/Video information? Does my computer have to be able to play a dvd? [Confused]

If someone could draw a diagram for the not-so-technically oriented like myself.

[ June 30, 2006, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Dan Lail ]

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Joerg Polzfusz
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From: Berlin, Germany, Europe, Earth, Solar System
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 - posted June 29, 2006 09:40 AM      Profile for Joerg Polzfusz   Author's Homepage   Email Joerg Polzfusz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi,

you'll only need the video to see if your film is still in sync. If you don't need this information you could just connect your dvd-player to your soundcard's line-in connector, record the soundtrack on your PC, add the sync-signal and then connect your film-projector to the PC... . In this scenario you wouldn't need a PC that can play back DVDs - 4GB of free space on your harddisk and a soundcard with a line-in and speaker-out would do.

After re-thinking this scenario:
You don't even need to record the soundtrack on your PC or to work with some of the tools mentioned above!
a) Connect the DVD-player's stereo-line-out to the projector's stereo-line-in.
b) Connect the PC-soundcard's line-out to the projector's sync-connector.
c) Create a wav-file with the sync-signal for a single frame (and the required "silence" to match the DVD's speed)
d) Load that wav-file in a wav-player that can repeat that wav-file in an endless loop and pause the playback
e) Start the DVD but pause it at the first frame
f) Load the film in the projector, set the projector to record, ...
g) now "unpause" both the dvd and the wav-player simultaniously
... that should be it!

Jörg

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Joerg Niggemann
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Posts: 127
From: Germany
Registered: May 2006


 - posted June 29, 2006 06:09 PM      Profile for Joerg Niggemann   Email Joerg Niggemann   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you use the PC as a sync source only, you can play back the audio signal directly from a DVD player or other source. In this case you have to start the projector and audio separately by hand and establish a synchronous playback. The PC signal will then take care that the projector stays in sync.
All you have to do in this case is

  • create the sync signal of desired frequency and duration (PAL/NTSC) in the audio software and play it back (don't use loop playback for NTSC!)
  • connect the soundcard output to the ESS input as described and check that the projector runs up in ESS mode
  • start audio source and projector simultaneously from your pre-defined start point and enjoy...
I think all of you who want to give it a try and don't want to do too much with the PC should start with this setup. All other more comfortable variants can be achieved from that point, but first it has to work so far.
Here's how to create the sync pulse signal in "Cool Edit 96" (choose generate-->tones from main menu):
 -

 -

Connect your soundcard audio out to pin 4/5 of the GS1200:

 -

Maybe it all sounds confusing, but it's very easy [Smile]
I tried it with 2 GS1200, different PC's and soundcards and it always worked fine.
Joerg

[ June 30, 2006, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: Joerg Niggemann ]

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Flavio Stabile
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From: Roma, Italia
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 - posted June 30, 2006 04:33 AM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Joerg,

the numbering of pins is different from mine...
this should be the reason why my attempts failed!

I will modify the connection cable and will try again
hoping i will definitely have the GS1200 working!

Thanks
Flavio

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Flavio Stabile
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Posts: 707
From: Roma, Italia
Registered: Feb 2005


 - posted June 30, 2006 12:24 PM      Profile for Flavio Stabile   Email Flavio Stabile   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Cable connection modified... it doesn't work!
I abandon the project...

Bye
Flavio

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