8mm Forum: Perforations are OK but film is shaking, what is this?

This is topic Perforations are OK but film is shaking, what is this? in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 11, 2013, 11:52 AM:

I have some reels that are seen visually good, no broken perforations but when I played them pictures are unsteady.

How to deal with this?

thanks

Posted by Dan A. Caprio (Member # 2089) on February 11, 2013, 12:21 PM:

Most probable cause is "shrunken film"...Sounds like you need a treatment such as "film renew" or similar produt... should make the print run more smoothy thru the gate.
Dan

Posted by Jim Schrader (Member # 9) on February 11, 2013, 12:54 PM:

is this from when the films were copied I have a few like that its almost like when they were making copies the copier was not steady. just a thought.

Posted by Zechariah Sporre (Member # 2358) on February 11, 2013, 01:09 PM:

I 've had a couple films that have done the same thing and I've cleaned them with Film Renew and have had no more problems.

Posted by Bryan Chernick (Member # 1998) on February 11, 2013, 02:11 PM:

I have soaked film in FilmRenew for a few days with good results. This was old 8mm film that had turned brittle and shrunk a little. It was so bad I couldn't make a cement splice without the film crumbling. I was easily able to splice it after soaking it for two days. Make sure you don't have tape splices, they will dissolve. Also use a metal reel.

Posted by Larry Arpin (Member # 744) on February 11, 2013, 02:13 PM:

I had a film that was unplayable on my GS1200 but was fine on my ST1200. It was acetate.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 11, 2013, 02:28 PM:

I have a couple that are as steady as a rock on my Eumig but weave around considerably with my Elmos. The inside edges of the sprocket holes keep sneaking in and out of frame. My best guess is the slitting isn't consistent and the Elmo's spring loaded gate is pressing an uneven edge up against the unsprung side, making the film move in and out as it gets wider and narrower.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 11, 2013, 03:13 PM:

Thanks guys, I think I will give a try with "Film renew".

BTW, can a shipping company take liquid products to cross the country?

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 11, 2013, 04:00 PM:

I hate to ring this old bell again, but I have found that rewinding the film through Armor-All Protectant wipes, does wonders on shrunken and unsteady prints. Plus it does a pretty good job of cleaning and lubricating the film.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 11, 2013, 04:43 PM:

quote:
I hate to ring this old bell again,

Paul, I noticed our old discussion back in 2004 (9 years ago!!!).

http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000579;p=1

Did you still use Johnson's to lubricate film or did you find something negative with it? I may give a try too, as the one shaking now is not really expensive film.

ps: other who do not agree please do not attack this idea. Everyone take their own risk.

Posted by Zechariah Sporre (Member # 2358) on February 11, 2013, 06:41 PM:

Correction on comment. I use Film Guard not Film Renew. I know everybody sells it in such large quantity and it's kinda expensive and a small quantity of this stuff lasts a long time. So if you want a smaller quantity I could probably find a bottle and ship some to you.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 11, 2013, 08:27 PM:

Hi Winbert,
Yes I have been using the Armor All wipes for about 8 years now and have seen no bad side effects on any of my films or my projectors. I stopped using the Johnsons furniture wax on the films, as I found the Armor-All wipes did a much better job of both cleaning and lubricating the film. The Armor all wipes contain some silicone and some water. My theory is that the water swells the film base a bit, helping to fill in the fine scratches, and offsetting some of the shrinkage. The silicone does a grat job of making the film more slippery. I have found that old shrunken films, which jitter around like crazy going through the projector, can be restored to smooth running with a couple of rewinds through the ArmorAll wipes.
To each his own though - we all have our preferences when it comes to cleaning and lubing film.

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on February 11, 2013, 10:59 PM:

Can "Film renew" help heavy abrasions on film the dreaded blue lines?

Posted by Gerald Santana (Member # 2362) on February 12, 2013, 12:19 AM:

Laksmi,

Film Renew will not make and blue or green lines better. As a cleaner, it softens superficial lines put on by dirty projector parts, cleans and lubricates, it's mostly used as a conditioner for shrunken (or warped) film.

Win,

If you don't have Film Renew (which should be air dried the same number of days it was soaked), you can always put the print on a "S" wind (with Film Guard) and leave it tails out on another reel for a month. You can see results after a couple of weeks on some prints that are not shrunken to badly.

Posted by Lee Mannering (Member # 728) on February 12, 2013, 06:04 AM:

1/On the really old acetate shrunken 8mm prints I always use Film Renew and whatever it’s made of I have found a good application then overnight soak in, finally run film through a clean lint free cloth does the trick.

2/I know some collectors also leave acetate short films on the reels un rewound to help avoid repeated tightening of the last 50ft shrinking over the years.

3/Has always been an annoyance to me when we obtain a film where the end has been pushed into the reels slot. This although handy when making ready to rewind a film does create a curl thus widening that part on the spool finally making for a uneven rewind. It’s much better to hold the end of the film around the spool core and hand wind the film back a few feet before hitting the rewind button.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on February 12, 2013, 11:28 AM:

Has anyone soaked a film in FilmRenew to improve brittleness, then treated it with FilmGuard to improve light lines?

If it all weren't so $$$...

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on February 12, 2013, 11:39 AM:

What gets me is the odd film that projects fine but overflows the same reel when I rewind it.

I think a little film lubrication would fix this by letting the layers of film slip on each other and tighten down more as the rewind is in progress.

Has anybody seen this work?

Posted by Bruce Wright (Member # 2793) on February 12, 2013, 04:05 PM:

Paul
Read your post and the older one. Having never cleaned nor lubed a film I thought the Armor All wipes may best meet my
skills. You suggest a couple of rewinds for this procedure.
Is this a clean/lube and show or is there a drying time.
Some of my films are a little jittery.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on February 13, 2013, 01:30 PM:

The ArmorAll wipe needs to be moist, but not dripping wet. You can project immediately after treatment.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on February 15, 2013, 05:00 PM:

Just projected my 3x400 Walton print of "Way out West", and noticed the same issues!

No perforation issues, a few splices (but they are all perfectly fine) and nothing visually wrong with the film what so ever. But still, shaking like mad and nearly unprojectable on my GS-800. I only projected the first part of reel one, but I spent pretty much the entire 200' pressing the loop creator to create a steady picture, but to no avail, it kept jumping!

However with the ST-180, no issues. Hopefully, it will project nice on the ST-1200 when I get it on a single reel, because it's one of my favorites!

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on February 16, 2013, 07:54 AM:

What you are experiencing Chris ,and I would imagine Winbert's
the same, known as a "green print",one that hasn't had any
lubrication and causes stutter in the gate.In the day it was put
down to being a brand new print and one that needed a bit of
lubrication.Attention must always be on the gate guides too, as
these do wear and cause prints to have frameline movement.
Removal and polishing is the solution to that one.A simple way
to see if your print is in need of lubrication, is to put a piece
of fluffless cloth, I use chamois leather,soaked in whatever
lubricant you favour, and wax the film while projecting, if the
"stuttering" stops, them that has been the problem.

Posted by Christian Bjorgen (Member # 1780) on February 16, 2013, 01:54 PM:

Yeah, I think you're quite right, Hugh.

I should really get my hands on some lubricant and treat the prints affected. So far, "Way Out West" in the only print on which I have experienced this issue as bad as this. On other prints it's maybe one or two stutters along the reel, but here it's all the time.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on February 16, 2013, 02:18 PM:

Where are you getting "the dreaded blue lines" Laksmi?

Posted by Greg Marshall (Member # 1268) on February 18, 2013, 10:18 AM:

If all else fails... give your film a Xanax... it will stop shaking I bet. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 19, 2013, 09:55 AM:

quote:
give your film a Xanax... it will stop shaking I bet

...but while your film is playing don't turn your vinyl with Michael Jackson's tune on...it's gonna shake again ("Shake Your Body") [Wink]

cheers,

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