8mm Forum: Filmguard first time user question

This is topic Filmguard first time user question in forum 8mm Forum at 8mm Forum.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008043

Posted by Clinton Hunt (Member # 2072) on March 27, 2013, 07:06 AM:

Hi all,
I have just got my first lot of Filmguard and want to make sure I am using it correctly.
I have the soft-cloth dampened with a single-pump and then run the film through the gripped cloth,how much pressure do I use, I have been holding it lightly and the film does look cleaner but I haven't really noticed a reduction in lines etc.Should I apply more pressure to the grip to clean it more?
And I presume that one run with the Filmguard will do the job?
Thanks all [Smile]

Clinton

P.S. Yes I posted this in both forums [Smile]

Posted by Matt McBride (Member # 3311) on March 27, 2013, 10:00 AM:

For the best results, it's good to use a Kelmar/Christie film cleaner or something of that nature. Now of course depending on what gauge you are using those may not be an option at the moment. Those cleaners were designed to use 35mm/70mm gauges, however you can modify those to fit 8mm/16mm gauges as well. I believe awhile back, before I was on this forum, somebody made a cleaner specifically for 8mm.

If you just want to use the cloth that is fine too. You need to apply enough pressure so that the FilmGuard is actually getting on the print, in other words, the print should look slightly wet. On the other hand you don't want to apply so much pressure that you are putting physical stress on the film, as that can damage it.

Even after one pass, the scratches may still be visible. It is very possible that you have to make several passes before they get filled in. Keep in mind it will take longer using a cloth than using one of the cleaner machines I mentioned earlier. As an example I had to run a print 3-4 times through my Kelmar cleaner before the scratches filled in completely. The print did look cleaner after one pass but a lot of the scratches were still there. This was a pretty bad print though.

In reality you really can't go too overboard with FilmGuard anyways. Though there will be a certain point that you apply so much to the cloth or cleaning machine, etc. that it gets almost wasted because it's not all going to the print.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on March 27, 2013, 11:12 AM:

Clinton,

Since double posting the same question isn't allowed, I've removed your other post. As Matt said, you are applying FilmGuard correctly, but I should point out the removal of lines and scratches is done by wet gate projection using a film-o-clean or Kelmar unit with pads wetting the film right before it goes through the gate. The hand wipe method is great for cleaning and lubricating and it does fill in some scratches, but real wet gate projection is the only way to remove lines while screening.

Doug

Posted by Elyas Tesfaye (Member # 3356) on March 27, 2013, 12:07 PM:

Thank you both Clint and Matt for raising the question and providing an elaborate response to it respectively [Smile]

... Also, I had no idea it was forbidden to post the same question which I might have done before [Eek!]

... Sorry about that, Doug, and thanks to you as well for more input on the post [Smile]

!!!

Best,
ET

Posted by Clinton Hunt (Member # 2072) on March 27, 2013, 04:08 PM:

Thanks guys for the replies,I thought I was doing it right but this will help me "fine-tune" the method [Smile]

p.S. Sorry about the double listing - lesson noted [Smile]

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on March 28, 2013, 12:58 AM:

No troubles with the doubles.....just that I'd rather have all the responses in one place so folks don't have to go searching for which post had that helpful answer.

Doug

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on April 04, 2013, 04:18 AM:

Douglas can you ever get rid of the green or blue lines? And why do you sometimes get them after you clean a film with FilmGuard ? Because it is to strong a cleaner ?

Posted by Pete Richards (Member # 2203) on April 04, 2013, 04:34 AM:

So would Filmguard or Filmrenew be the better wet-gate solution via a film-o-clean?
I'm still hopeful of obtaining a film-o-clean unit and would like to use the product that gives the best wet-gate performance.

(Unfortunately the distributer for Filmguard has gone belly-up in Australia, so it will be costly to import)

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on April 06, 2013, 03:06 PM:

Thanks ROY good answer. How do I get the dirt back? Will the scratch fill up again later if I don't clean it? Or do they make stuff to fill in scratches for emulsion. I have had movies that I used FilmGuard on that cleaned the scratched line off. But like you say the emulsion was a deep scratched and the dirt was hiding the colored line was then revealed. Now I am afraid to clean my films . I had a film that was beautiful when I bought it and then after one cleaning the oolored emulsion lines came up.

Posted by Matt McBride (Member # 3311) on April 06, 2013, 07:16 PM:

Laksmi, don't feel afraid to clean you films with FilmGuard. Actually if you run the movie through several passes through it, especially right before hand, ie with a cleaner to get the wet gate feel, it will start to fill in the emulsion scratches as well. Now of course if the scratch is very deep it still won't hide it completely but still make it look better than if none was applied.

If you want the dirt to come back, just stop using FilmGuard or FilmRenew or other cleaning products, they will eventually evaporate off of the film. I am not sure how long, I know FilmGuard lasts for quite awhile but I never did any experiments on how long it will stay on before it evaporates, mainly because I routinely clean them with it and use it every time I run a print. That would be a question for Brad. After this point has happened, just let the film sit out in room out of its container and dust will start to build up on the film again. Keep in mind though you could be taking a huge risk in actually damaging the film further.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on April 07, 2013, 02:42 PM:

Laksmi,

Your new member pic looks very cool!

I have never come across a cleaner or lubricant that causes emulsion scratches. I guess if you were holding the wipe very tightly while cleaning and a piece of dirt got caught it would scratch your film, however my first thought was that the scratch occurred when you last ran the print through your projector. Is this possible?

Doug

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on April 08, 2013, 07:08 PM:

No none of my other prints are showing scratches after film cleaning? I was thinking that Doug but it has to be the cleaning. My GOLDFINGER FILM I just bought from Pat was clean except for at the end titles . And I showed it over and over then my new Captain America I showed over and over and still no scratches. Then the films with scratches have scratches in different places not in the same places. One film has lines at the front of the reel then stops at a splice? I am afraid to clean other films now. I usually clean after a showing or so. I think Matt is right and it has to be the dirt hides in the print answer. And cleaning brings it out. I think I will try this wet gate idea. Or do you think FILMRENEW will be good for the wetgate treatment or FilmGuard? So do you all think I should clean the scratches again or leave the film and live with the scratch? Oh anyway I did notice after leaving the film for a while the cleaner evaporates off and the emulsion scratches are less visible.

Posted by Matt McBride (Member # 3311) on April 08, 2013, 11:05 PM:

Doug is right about the cleaner not scratching the film. If you are only using cloth and hand pressure method, it is possible that a piece of dirt or whatever got caught in the rag without you knowing it and end result = scratch. As far as doing a "wet" gate method, you would have to have a cleaner, such as a Kelmar, it would have to be modified to allow 8mm film, but only the rollers, the cleaning pads can stay as 35mm sizes, or buy one from, I believe it is Roy Neil on here who use to make them specifically for 8mm.

The other option for this "wet" gate, though it won't be the most optimal, is to apply your cleaner using the rag method right before you show the film. I personally would continue to clean your prints and when you know you are going to show one, just mentally prepare to clean it in advance unless you get one of this cleaners. As far as using FilmRenew vs. FilmGuard, that is totally up to you. The big difference is that FilmRenew is just a lubricant where FilmGuard is both a lubricant and cleaner. This is why I'd pick FilmGuard myself as it cleans as lubes. I hope this helps.

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on April 08, 2013, 11:36 PM:

I would think what is happening here is that the scratches have
been there before Laksmi applied his cleaner. The marks he describes are emulsion scratches that are now more visible, this
is because of the cleaner highlighting the mark, if the mark had
been on the base side, no doubt it's "refractive index" would
have been changed and rendered the image of it invisible on
projection, the reverse happens when it is the film emulsion that
has been damaged, and so makes it more visible when shown.
I've no doubt that Laksmi when cleaning his prints will discover
more of them marked.To prove this, simply apply the fluid to
a "new" print, which won't have any scratches at all.

Posted by Laksmi Breathwaite (Member # 2320) on April 09, 2013, 04:11 AM:

Yeah I LOVE FilmGuard! I applied the cleaner to a Ten Commandments new print I had and there was nothing but clean film. I had the Marketing 3X 400 print for 30 years with one of the reels still in plastic sealed wrap. It was perfect.

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2