8mm Forum: reverse action super8

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Posted by Magnus Irvin (Member # 2983) on August 01, 2013, 03:19 AM:

I want to shoot some super8 film in a way that what is eventually run through the projector shows the actual film action in reverse.
As I understand it I will need to shoot with the camera upside-down and then reverse the actual film to run it through the projector. Is that correct?
Does anyone have any tips regarding shooting reverse action super8?

Yours hopefully

Magnus Irvin

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 01, 2013, 03:20 AM:

You've got it in a nutshell Magnus.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 01, 2013, 03:24 AM:

No, this would not work with Super 8. It works only with 9,5 (which has a central perforation and 16 with double perforations).

Posted by Magnus Irvin (Member # 2983) on August 01, 2013, 04:33 AM:

ooh. Now I'm a bit confused. I've had 2 answers and they contradict each other. Many thanks to both for your replies.
I can't see why it shouldn't work even if the film is only perforated on one side.
Maybe I should just do it?

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on August 01, 2013, 05:03 AM:

Dominique, I'm sorry to say you're wrong: the technique Magnus wants to use is clearly described in Paul Petzold's Super 8 Manual: you are probably missing the fact that not only must he run the film from end to start during projection, but ALSO he has to flip the sides of the film, hence the base side will have to face the lens, as opposed to normal run. Of course, for this very reason, footage shot like this cannot cut seamlessly with footage shot normally, as a shift in focus will be apparent.

One more possibility, though only for a handful of seconds: the Nikon R10/R8 can actually shoot in reverse, but for about 100 frames only due to cartridge constraints.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 01, 2013, 05:38 AM:

Maurizio, it is exactly why I wrote it wouldn't work, except that I could not explain it in English as well as you did. The shinning side of the filmstock (that has a protection lay) will be reversed so that, unless if you're prepared to have your finger ready on the focus knob each time you project the film, you will have an out of focus scene. This is one of the reasons why French manuals advise not to use this is super 8 (or double 8 or 16 mm with a single perforation). Beside the "out of focus) problem, you may have a less well adherance of sound track and lines after some projections. By the way, this is a forum. I may be wrong, on this subject like on others, so contradiction is not a problem at all. Like on many subjects, the best way is to try and see what happens. If you're happy with the result, that's the point !

Posted by Magnus Irvin (Member # 2983) on August 01, 2013, 06:03 AM:

Thanks so much for the information. Really useful. I hadn't heard of the focusing problem before. I'm going to try a short test and take it from there.
Fingers crossed
Magnus

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 01, 2013, 06:07 AM:

Hope it works !

Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on August 01, 2013, 06:40 AM:

You will find this mentioned in 'Special Effects in Cinematography' by H.A.V. Bulleid (circa 1954). But as already mentioned it would only work with 9.5mm and double perforated 16mm film.

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on August 01, 2013, 06:52 AM:

Well, so now it makes sense, Dominique. We may want to re-phrase a little and say it works but with a compromise. Eventually, though, the necessity to rack focus during projection will be vouched if the whole project is to be shown reversed, so this might be of no concern to the original poster. As for soundtrack: true, it cannot be striped: the mag track won't adhere to the emulsion side of the film, the acetone-based glue is inefective on it. But probably paste striping should do. Yet we don't know if Magnus is interested in having sync sound on that, or wild sound from a different source or no sound at all. Therefore, based on the actual information supplied, I think what he wants to do should be considered doable.

One more thing regarding possible scratches: having a film run with the emulsion side facing the lamp shoud not be a problem: all contact prints are like that.

Cheers

Posted by Magnus Irvin (Member # 2983) on August 03, 2013, 04:40 AM:

Now I have the full picture.
I have gone ahead and shot a 10 sec animation scene in reverse. It will be part of a longer film (shot in normal motion)so I'll just have to 'suck it and see' as they say. A little bit of poor focus and a gap in soundtrack may not make much diffence within the context of this film. Most of my films are a bit rickety.
I'm very grateful for all your advice.

Magnus

Posted by Hugh Thompson Scott (Member # 2922) on August 04, 2013, 08:05 AM:

Maurizio is right,as stated there will be a shift in focus, due to the emulsion being on the other side for the shot, but it shouldn't
cause too much distraction.

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