8mm Forum: Chinon 9500mv projector

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Posted by Vin Collins (Member # 4124) on March 10, 2014, 03:03 AM:

I have this projector and I am using a SONY telecine box and SONY digital camcorder to transfer 8mm film.....the problem is, I am getting horizontal upward flashing black flicker lines showing up on my camcorder monitor screen when recording thru box....how do I remove these flashing black lines??? I can look thru telecine box and see the film perfectly playing off mirror but when I put camcorder up to telecine box and view film playing thru camcorder monitor screen....I get the flicker....

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on March 10, 2014, 04:39 AM:

Vary the speed of the projector (if it is variable speed) gradually until the flicker disappears (about 20 frames per second). If it's not a variable speed projector.... you need to use a variable speed one!
As you appear to be involving sound also, this will result in incorrect sound pitch, so you will need to put the resulting Video onto a Computer and change the speed back in an Edit Program.
Easier altogether to Capture Direct into Computer (overcomes your Audio level problem also) rather than try to make a recording on the Camcorder.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on March 10, 2014, 04:50 AM:

This Chinon does have a variable speed control, but it only covers a very limited range.

Posted by Vin Collins (Member # 4124) on March 11, 2014, 12:25 AM:

Okay so I guess I have learned the hard way that this very expensive Chinon sound 9500mv projector with all of its high end bells and whistles is basically worthless when it comes to transferring film thru a Sony telecine box and into my Sony digital camcorder due to excessive "flicker" on screen that can't be adjusted/removed...notomention distortion issues with also trying to transfer the audio.....ANYONE HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS ON ANOTHER BRAND/MODEL OF 8MM SOUND PROJECTOR I SHOULD BUY THAT WILL NOT GIVE ME THESE ISSUES? IM AWARE OF EUMIG/ELMO/SANKYO but not sure which to buy? THANKS-

Posted by Maurizio Di Cintio (Member # 144) on March 11, 2014, 01:04 AM:

Any sound Sankyo will do: these machines' motors are electronically controlled (direct current) and you can fine tune the speed with trim pots located inside the machine with a precision screwdriver (be it insulated!).

Some Elmo with same speed control system can be tweaked to run at 20 fps. ALso Eumig, event though not electronically controlled, can run at 20, for example with a Series 900 machine you can get any speed from 18 to 24 as the 2 standrd speed are obtained when the speed control knob is rotated all the way left or right; but inbetween you get what you what. Also with a Series 800 machine this is possible but it's a little less practical because of the way the speed change selector is designed (which is advisable to use only when the projector is in stop mode). So I'd suggest Sankyo's or Eumig 9xx.

As for the sound make sure you use a LINE out or even a headphone socket, not a socket for external loudspeaker, as distortion may occur almost certainly in this case. Have fun!

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on March 11, 2014, 03:37 AM:

Vin
This Sankyo will have two internal adjustable speed potentiometers, one each for two different speeds. It should be ideal for transfer purposes.
I have many Sankyos, they are great little projectors.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sankyo-700-Super-8mm-Sound-Silent-Movie-Film-Projector-/400675566093?pt=US_Movie_Slide_Projectors&hash=item5d4a1ff20d

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on March 11, 2014, 03:44 AM:

Good advice from Maurizio, but still bear in mind the point about sound. If you still intend to record the sound on your Camcorder you will need substantial attenuation from either Line Out or Headphone sockets.
Out of interest, what sound films are you trying to transfer...
home movies or commercial, 18 fps or 24 fps?

Posted by Vin Collins (Member # 4124) on March 11, 2014, 09:45 PM:

Im transferring 8mm sound 18fps ...commercial....old boxing films-

Posted by Vin Collins (Member # 4124) on March 12, 2014, 01:01 AM:

Okay...just to clarify here, there really isn't an 8mm silent or sound projector that I can buy to do telecine transfers that wont first need a bunch of tinkering with in order to get the speed right? Because so far I have a Chinon silent dual 8mm 4000GL and Chinon sound 9500mv projector....and neither seem to be able to get rid of the flicker effect (regardless of speed)----

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on March 12, 2014, 06:44 AM:

Vin,
Categorical answer... there REALLY isn't.

The problem arises from the inherent difference between Cinema (film) technology and TV (Video) technology. At 18 fps the 3 blade shutter of a projector puts pictures on the screen 3 X 18 = 48 times a second. TV (Video) puts pictures on the screen 60 (Close approx)times a second. The difference produces the "Flicker" (12 times a second) which manifests itself in a number of way, including "rolling bars" on the screen.
Since you cannot change the "picture rate" of the Video camera you HAVE to change that of the projector to eliminate the effect,
so you use 20 fps (20 X 3 =60).
This is not too important with silent film, the action will be slightly increased in speed. But with sound film, the sound pitch will increase by 11%, an obvious change.
The only reasonably easy way of solving this problem is by either putting the Video recording into a computer (or by making the recording on the computer in the first place, known as capturing) and then using a Computer Program to both slow down the action and sound, thus restoring the original action speed and sound pitch.
Does this work in practice? Categorically, YES!

Having said that, changing the speed to eliminate the flicker is NOT difficult unless you want everything dished up on a plate. The Eumig sound projectors with model numbers in the 900 range will do this with a manual speed control on the front panel.You simply adjust it until the pictures on the Camera monitor screen have no "flicker". There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of us out here who have been doing it for years.

There ARE commercially produced machines that do all that for you, often modified from standard projectors, but unless you have a very great deal of film to transfer the cost of purchasing one is probably prohibitive.

One can't help but ask... are there no commercial DVDs of the commercial films you are trying to transfer?
Martin

Posted by Vidar Olavesen (Member # 3354) on March 12, 2014, 07:27 AM:

My Sony DV camera (not HD) have an option for shutter speed and the flickering is gone when I turn this on. My HD camera doesn't have this and isn't as good (a Nikon D3200)

Posted by Vin Collins (Member # 4124) on March 13, 2014, 12:31 AM:

Martin....can you give me an exact model number for a sound Eumig projector or other brand that you would suggest I buy that will allow me to control the flicker effect?? You mentioned 900 series in Eumig models...which one? A model with as many features as possible too?

And also a silent super 8mm reg 8mm projector?? Eumig? Sankyo model number? Thanks-

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on March 13, 2014, 04:22 AM:

For preference, Models S932,933 & 934 which have separate feed and take up spool arms and top sprockets for better film transport.
S938 & 940 are similar but have elaborate sound facilities, which make them very expensive,and are not justified .for your purpose
Models S903 thru 912 (with or without a GL suffix), are also excellent machines IF THEY ARE IN GOOD CONDITION. Some have issues with film transport or their very awkward coaxial reel arrangement.
Usual words of caution... make sure it works properly before you buy. And... you don't need a silent machine if you have a sound one, so don't buy both!
Anyone else offer advice re these machines, based on specific model experience, please?.

http://www.super8data.com/ click on the "projector" picture, then ""eumig, then "model number" for machine details

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on March 13, 2014, 05:27 AM:

Super 8 database says the model 933 is made by Silma, unfortunately it does not show a picture to confirm.

If is made by Silma it will be a Bauer clone and will not have variable speed availability.

I have a 932 and I can confirm that it would be quite suitable.

Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on March 13, 2014, 06:02 AM:

Thank you, Maurice! Vin, remove 933 from list!

Posted by Janice Glesser (Member # 2758) on March 19, 2014, 12:46 PM:

Also look for a Bell & Howell 11XJ. This is a Super 8mm sound projector with variable speed external controls. I have used it to transfer sound reels. Of course as previously stated you will have to adjust the speed in a video editor after capture.

Posted by Barry Fritz (Member # 1865) on March 30, 2014, 03:08 PM:

Following up on what Vidar mentioned, it may be a better option to buy a DV camera with an electronic shutter. Electronic variable shutter speeds allow flicker free recording of computer monitors and also film transfers.

Different manufacturers call it by different names. Nomenclature is as follows:
• Panasonic: Synchro Scan
• JVC Variable Scan
• Sony: Clear Scan

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