8mm Forum: Sound fps in Super 8

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Posted by Luigi Castellitto (Member # 3759) on August 02, 2014, 06:43 PM:

Are existed in commerce Super 8 sound film to be projected at 18 fps instead of the usual 24 fps?

Posted by Zechariah Sporre (Member # 2358) on August 02, 2014, 08:40 PM:

I have a couple early silent films that have a music sound track at 18 fps. They are Blackhawk Films super 8 prints and the came with a little piece of paper in the box that specified 18 fps.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 02, 2014, 11:40 PM:

I have aslo sonorised silent films (not only from Blackhawk) that run at 18 fps.

Posted by Luigi Castellitto (Member # 3759) on August 03, 2014, 07:16 AM:

Ah, interesting! So, only film before introduction of the standard of 24 fps sound, I understand.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on August 03, 2014, 07:23 AM:

I cannot guarantee at 100 % it but I think that I have a cartoon that runs at 18 fps.

Posted by Mal Brake (Member # 14) on August 03, 2014, 11:42 AM:

I have a 200ft b/w sound railway film released by DCR which runs at 18fps. Part of it takes a look behind the scenes of 'Oh Mr Porter' from 1937.

Posted by John Skujins (Member # 1515) on August 04, 2014, 10:21 AM:

I have some Chrysler training films that are Super 8 mag sound at 18 fps.

Posted by Luigi Castellitto (Member # 3759) on April 11, 2015, 05:30 PM:

Thank you to all.
And Y
you have or know, however, Regular 8 film with sound that go to 18 or 16 fps instead of 24?

Posted by Panayotis A. Carayannis (Member # 1220) on April 12, 2015, 09:42 AM:

Before the coming of Super 8,standard (regular) 8 cameras and most projectors ran at,or up to, 16 fps.After super 8 appeared,for technical reasons,the speed rose to 18 fps.
Blackhawk did a few sound releases reprinted or converted to 18 fps.(One was a Laurel and Hardy comedy).
There are also non-commercial films filmed at 16 fps.
Now, if you have an original silent film with a music soundtrack,many times you can decide on the projection speed despite the fact that it may have been recorded at 18 or 24 fps. For example,my std 8 copy of THE LOST WORLD has orchestral music recorded at 24 fps but the film is ideally run at 18 fps in order to not look like a comedy.Believe me,the music is most impressive and imposing at that speed!
Of course this may not apply to every silent,so ideally,if you want to sonorize a film,you must first decide on its correct speed

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on April 12, 2015, 12:20 PM:

Panayotis, do you know what the technical reasons for having swiched from 16 to 18 fps are ? I have always have guesses but I would be interested in reasons given by those who took the decisions. For the commercial films, you're of course right that there have been none of them at 16 fps but for the films from the silent area, that's a complete different thing as the speed may vary, even until 24 fps for some films. The cameras were not motorized at the beginning and nor were the projectors, so it is not surprising that the speed was not really fixed. The first 9,5 Pathé Baby projector was intended to run at 14 fps (to make savings on the filmstock).

Posted by John Hermes (Member # 1367) on April 12, 2015, 02:55 PM:

The frame rate was changed from 16 to 18 fps to reduce the perception of projector flicker to the human eye. When the projector shutter interrupts the the lamp beam under approximately 50 times a second flicker is perceived by normal human vision. A 16 fps rate x three-blade shutter will produce 48 interruptions per second (which is just barely enough to avoid flicker for most people). An 18 fps rate x 3-blade shutter will produce 54 interruptions per second, lessening the perception of flick to the human eye. In the days of film projection at the theater, 24 fps x two-blade shutter (48 interruptions) would cause perceived flicker during very bright scenes. The brighter the image the more flicker is perceived. Two-blade shutters were used at the cinema to put more light on the screen. The phenomenon of after image on the retina is known as persistence of vision.

imhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_of_visionage

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on April 12, 2015, 04:39 PM:

I imagine this was at the time that projectors were beginning to get better lamps and lenses so the screen brightness was higher and the flicker more noticeable than before. So a good move.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on April 13, 2015, 07:52 AM:

Thank you, John. I always thought that 16fps was the minimum speed to avoid flickering ; I didn't know it was not universal and some people could be uncomfortable with that speed.

Posted by Luigi Castellitto (Member # 3759) on April 13, 2015, 04:40 PM:

Also interesting is the discussion about 16 and 18 frame for second, it's right!
But I meant it: as for the Super 8, the standard for Regular 8 commercial film SOUND is 24frame/s, but there are also Regular 8 commercial sound movie that go to 16 or 18 frame/s; it's right?

Posted by Joseph Randall (Member # 4906) on June 15, 2015, 08:07 PM:

quote:
Blackhawk did a few sound releases reprinted or converted to 18 fps.(One was a Laurel and Hardy comedy).

DIRTY WORK.

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