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Author Topic: Sound fps in Super 8
Luigi Castellitto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 715
From: Campobasso, Italy
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted August 02, 2014 06:43 PM      Profile for Luigi Castellitto   Email Luigi Castellitto   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Are existed in commerce Super 8 sound film to be projected at 18 fps instead of the usual 24 fps?

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Zechariah Sporre
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Ladysmith, WI U.S.A.
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 - posted August 02, 2014 08:40 PM      Profile for Zechariah Sporre   Email Zechariah Sporre   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a couple early silent films that have a music sound track at 18 fps. They are Blackhawk Films super 8 prints and the came with a little piece of paper in the box that specified 18 fps.

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted August 02, 2014 11:40 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have aslo sonorised silent films (not only from Blackhawk) that run at 18 fps.

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Dominique

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Luigi Castellitto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 715
From: Campobasso, Italy
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted August 03, 2014 07:16 AM      Profile for Luigi Castellitto   Email Luigi Castellitto   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ah, interesting! So, only film before introduction of the standard of 24 fps sound, I understand.

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted August 03, 2014 07:23 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I cannot guarantee at 100 % it but I think that I have a cartoon that runs at 18 fps.

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Dominique

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Mal Brake
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Neath, South Wales, UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 03, 2014 11:42 AM      Profile for Mal Brake   Email Mal Brake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a 200ft b/w sound railway film released by DCR which runs at 18fps. Part of it takes a look behind the scenes of 'Oh Mr Porter' from 1937.

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John Skujins
Expert Film Handler

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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
Registered: Mar 2009


 - posted August 04, 2014 10:21 AM      Profile for John Skujins   Email John Skujins   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have some Chrysler training films that are Super 8 mag sound at 18 fps.

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Luigi Castellitto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 715
From: Campobasso, Italy
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted April 11, 2015 05:30 PM      Profile for Luigi Castellitto   Email Luigi Castellitto   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you to all.
And Y
you have or know, however, Regular 8 film with sound that go to 18 or 16 fps instead of 24?

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Panayotis A. Carayannis
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Athens,Greece
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 - posted April 12, 2015 09:42 AM      Profile for Panayotis A. Carayannis   Email Panayotis A. Carayannis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Before the coming of Super 8,standard (regular) 8 cameras and most projectors ran at,or up to, 16 fps.After super 8 appeared,for technical reasons,the speed rose to 18 fps.
Blackhawk did a few sound releases reprinted or converted to 18 fps.(One was a Laurel and Hardy comedy).
There are also non-commercial films filmed at 16 fps.
Now, if you have an original silent film with a music soundtrack,many times you can decide on the projection speed despite the fact that it may have been recorded at 18 or 24 fps. For example,my std 8 copy of THE LOST WORLD has orchestral music recorded at 24 fps but the film is ideally run at 18 fps in order to not look like a comedy.Believe me,the music is most impressive and imposing at that speed!
Of course this may not apply to every silent,so ideally,if you want to sonorize a film,you must first decide on its correct speed

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted April 12, 2015 12:20 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Panayotis, do you know what the technical reasons for having swiched from 16 to 18 fps are ? I have always have guesses but I would be interested in reasons given by those who took the decisions. For the commercial films, you're of course right that there have been none of them at 16 fps but for the films from the silent area, that's a complete different thing as the speed may vary, even until 24 fps for some films. The cameras were not motorized at the beginning and nor were the projectors, so it is not surprising that the speed was not really fixed. The first 9,5 Pathé Baby projector was intended to run at 14 fps (to make savings on the filmstock).

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Dominique

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John Hermes
Expert Film Handler

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From: La Mesa, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2008


 - posted April 12, 2015 02:55 PM      Profile for John Hermes   Email John Hermes   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The frame rate was changed from 16 to 18 fps to reduce the perception of projector flicker to the human eye. When the projector shutter interrupts the the lamp beam under approximately 50 times a second flicker is perceived by normal human vision. A 16 fps rate x three-blade shutter will produce 48 interruptions per second (which is just barely enough to avoid flicker for most people). An 18 fps rate x 3-blade shutter will produce 54 interruptions per second, lessening the perception of flick to the human eye. In the days of film projection at the theater, 24 fps x two-blade shutter (48 interruptions) would cause perceived flicker during very bright scenes. The brighter the image the more flicker is perceived. Two-blade shutters were used at the cinema to put more light on the screen. The phenomenon of after image on the retina is known as persistence of vision.

imhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_of_visionage

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John Hermes

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: London, UK
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 - posted April 12, 2015 04:39 PM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I imagine this was at the time that projectors were beginning to get better lamps and lenses so the screen brightness was higher and the flicker more noticeable than before. So a good move.

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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 - posted April 13, 2015 07:52 AM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you, John. I always thought that 16fps was the minimum speed to avoid flickering ; I didn't know it was not universal and some people could be uncomfortable with that speed.

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Dominique

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Luigi Castellitto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 715
From: Campobasso, Italy
Registered: Jun 2013


 - posted April 13, 2015 04:40 PM      Profile for Luigi Castellitto   Email Luigi Castellitto   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Also interesting is the discussion about 16 and 18 frame for second, it's right!
But I meant it: as for the Super 8, the standard for Regular 8 commercial film SOUND is 24frame/s, but there are also Regular 8 commercial sound movie that go to 16 or 18 frame/s; it's right?

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Joseph Randall
Master Film Handler

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From: Wyckoff, NJ, USA
Registered: Jun 2015


 - posted June 15, 2015 08:07 PM      Profile for Joseph Randall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Blackhawk did a few sound releases reprinted or converted to 18 fps.(One was a Laurel and Hardy comedy).
DIRTY WORK.

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