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Topic: Sound Heads

Mark Kligerman
Film Handler

Posts: 75
From: Ann Arbor, MI, USA
Registered: Jul 2014

posted August 31, 2014 01:02 PM

Hi Everyone,

I know that Eumig projectors have sound heads that wear down over time. Does the same problem afflict Elmo projectors?

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted August 31, 2014 01:12 PM

They all do but Elmo heads are more durable than most.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted August 31, 2014 03:20 PM

generaly speaking heads wear so much more when they are used a lot for recording, if all u do is watch films they shoulld last the life of a projector, Elmo heads are certainly much stronger, or at least that seems to be the common thought, if you buy a used machine that you know to have been used heavily for recording i'd always steer clear [Wink]

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 31, 2014 03:29 PM

The Elmo heads used a special alloy called Sendust and they seem to last forever. Eumig heads definately wear down a lot faster, particularly the narrow track 2 head. Which is why, when projecting mono films, I always use a modified pressure pad to remove the pressure on the track 2 head of my Eumig 938 (thank you Maurizio for that great tip).

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Mark Kligerman
Film Handler

Posts: 75
From: Ann Arbor, MI, USA
Registered: Jul 2014

posted August 31, 2014 04:45 PM

Thanks everyone. This is of great help. By the way, how do the sound heads on a Sankyo compare to those of an Elmo?

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted August 31, 2014 05:50 PM

Thank you,Paul. But I disagree with Tom: head wear simply depends on contact with mag track, regardless using it for recording or playback - it's just a mechanical thing, not electric/magnetic.

As regards Mark's second question, in my experience Sankyo heads seem to compare very well with Elmo's; they really look like very similar (in fact I suspect they came from the same manufacturer as Elmo's); they do not last that long but much longer than Eumig's and you rarely have to replace it on a Sankyo.

One thing that can affect head's life, especially Eumig's track 2, is cement splices: because of the pressure pads design, these put a lot of stress on the gap whenever a splice is dragged through, if its thickness is too much. Eumig themselves cared to inform in their manuals that the sound quality depends on the condition of the sound head (translating: its wear) AND how good splices are made. A good cement splice not only is hardly audible but will not put too much stress on the system: it must have just a slight increase in thickness and the joined ends must be perfectly aligned longitudinally. Bevel splices are ideal AND they must be clean and flat: sometimes old cement can have some delayed action and bend the splicing point noticeably; perhaps the film will still go through the aperture gate relatively unnoticed but the sound head will suffer from this. Add to that a self made film may contain dozens and dozens (possibly hundreds) of splices and these then become a relevant factor to head wear along with stripe type: paste stripes tend to be sort of coarser to the heads, whereas laminated is slightly smoother.

Finally a question: I had the chance to notice Noris' sound heads and Braun Visacustic's are quite similar albeit very differently arranged as regards their mounting/adjustment. It is usually accepted Eumig were an all-round manufacturer, providing (almost?) all parts for their machines in-house. But perhaps this was not the case of sound heads, unless both Noris and Braun had Eumig make them on their behalf. It would be nice to discover the independent manufacturer of these heads is still in business, maybe just daydreaming!... But does anybody know anything about this?

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Maurizio

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted September 01, 2014 01:40 AM

A Eumig repair specialist once told me that - at least with an 800 series projector such as an 824 - a mere 200 hours use is enough for serious wear, which is worrying! Presumably there's no way of replacing a worn one unless you find a decent one in a 'spares' projector? If someone could manufacture good sound heads for a range of projectors, they might do good business even in this day and age.

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Adrian Winchester

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted September 01, 2014 03:41 AM

Perhaps we should ask the Turin-based company "Photovox": they manufacture(d) sound heads for the Fumeo projectors, perhaps they can make some prototypes for other makes' projectors, although Eumig heads are totally different from the ones used in the Fumeo.

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Maurizio

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted September 01, 2014 03:53 AM

Carrying on from Maurizio's fine points raised, having just watched the full DVD collection of "Men Behind the Movies" and "Armchair Odeon" series, there is a section on the end of one of the discs, as an add on bonus piece of footage, that displays the wonderful design and manufacturing facility that Eumig once boasted all at one enormous plant in Austria.

The footage lasts around twelve minutes and shows the full design and manufacturing processes used in the early eighties which was really high tech for back then with many early CNC machines on display using "punch tape" or magnetic tape to hold the programes ha ha! One section of the video concentrated entirely on the manufacturing process of their magnetic sound heads used both in projectors and their cameras. This was one manufacturer that designed and produced all of their own parts from raw materials, even their lenses!

Moving on, I have found that many other companies did in fact use parts from an independent manufacturer and therefore there are some machines which share the same sound head. For instance the Bauer "Studioklasse" series of projectors use the Woelke 464 sound head as does the Beaulieu 708el twin track and Stereo models. I have also heard of people interchanging the Sanko and Eumig stereo soundheads as they are very similar if not the same I believe.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted September 01, 2014 04:34 AM

Here is tip to acquire a "new" projector with almost perfectly new sound heads which should last for years.

The tip?

Buy a projector that was probably bought for filming "baby on the lawn". Baby grew. Interest disappeared. The projector was stored away, then probably found some twenty years later and sold by "baby" who had no interest in his late father's prize possession.

So, look out for the original cardboard box in pristine condition, all the polystyrene insets complete, all accessories present, and, of course, the instruction book. (This latter often mysteriously disappears.)

This happened recently when I bought my Eumig 824 Sonomatic off German eBay. Everything is there right down to the swinging label affixed to the handle, some items are still in their sealed plastic bags.

The sound is crystal clear and it was a great buy.

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted September 01, 2014 05:54 AM

Great tip Maurice, but I doubt anyone ever purchased a Fumeo 9119 or an Elmo GS1200 or Beaulieu 708EL for just such purpose from new and therefore gave it so little use only to find it turning up nowadays in someones loft.

These are three of the machines that work best in "Home Cinema" and therefore the most desirable machines by far, and out of the three, only Beaulieu offers new spare parts.

Therefore IMHO it has to be either a Beaulieu nowadays or if out of reach, a Bauer as parts can still be found for these too including brand new sound heads.

I cannot imagine the disappointment of say buying a well cared for GS1200 at let's say £750, only for the main motor to pack in 6 months down the line!

As Adam on here has recently seen, getting someone to part with a spare nowadays is nigh on impossible I would have thought.

I personally would much prefer to buy a used but well cared for high end machine which the owner has already done his homework some years ago and had the foresight to collect some vital spare parts for it over the years like a friend of mine has for his own GS1200's

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted September 01, 2014 06:10 AM

The topic is about Eumig projectors.

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted September 01, 2014 06:13 AM

No it's not Maurice, it is about sound heads as the heading suggests. [Wink]

Having said all of that, I did see on the "odeon" series a collector who had converted an Fujicascope SD25 to a 250w long play machine by using an old slide transformer and a set of Spondon arms. The results were amazing but the PJ itself looked a dogs dinner after it had been butchered to fit external fans etc.
Also spondon long play arms are seldom seen anywhere for sale nowadays sadly.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted September 01, 2014 06:34 AM

Eumig sounds heads are defiantly softer, heads will wear eventually but if you use a projector very heavily for recording they will wear quicker.

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted September 01, 2014 07:38 AM

How about taking a sound head out of a camera wouldn't these be made to last?

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted September 01, 2014 09:49 AM

Only Eumig and Elmo were mentioned in the opening posting. My comment about original boxes applied to them and can also include many interesting projectors, but none are quite in the class of the Beaulieu 708, Elmo GS1200, or Fumeo 9119.

I have all three of the latter and it would certainly be a surprise to find one in its original box. They were probably bought in the first place for "work" and not casual amateur home use, and unless they have been well maintained by their owners there is no way of knowing what you are buying, or whether you will have to go continually into your bank account to keep them going!

I have the following makes still in their original cardboard boxes:- Agfa, Bauer, Bell & Howell, Bolex, Chinon, Cineton, Copal, Elmo, Eumig, and Sankyo. All appear to have had little use.

Another. Not in a cardboard box but still complete in its black transit case, the delightful Fujicascope Sound SH30, a projector to die for.

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Maurice

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted September 01, 2014 12:16 PM

Tom, can you please elaborate??? [Eek!]

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Maurizio

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted September 01, 2014 02:05 PM

Mine came in it's original card box Maurice and in the past month I have seen two lovely GS1200's for sale all with original boxes and all original accessories.

I think there are plenty of "desirable" machines out there that haven't been run to death on Soho and have been kept by caring owners, otherwise why would they spend the £800 or several thousand pounds that these machines cost in the first place?

As the subject was discussing wear to sound heads in general, I thought it was good relevant advice to point out the only machines out there which you can replace these with new.

If I was coming back into the hobby again now, I personally wouldn't look at at any Eumig just because there are no spares to be had. Even if you buy another machine the parts will no doubt have some wear to them including the heads and then what?

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted September 01, 2014 04:54 PM

Which is why Andrew, that I severely limit the useage of my Eumig 938, much as I really love this projector. The Eumig 800 series heads were only rated for only about 150 hours, and I have no idea if the 900 series are more durable. My work horses now are GS1200's, the heads never seem to wear out, and you can still get a lot of spare parts for these machines from Leon Norris here in the USA. I have yet to find a part that I need, that Leon cannot supply. Leon once told me that he has only ever had to replace one head on all the GS1200'S that he has serviced.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted September 01, 2014 05:45 PM

Paul, I already know you have all of the wisdom and more to truly preserve all what you cherish, so your remarks don't surprise me one bit. Your Cinema has to be one of the very best there is, just stunning! [Wink]

I would like to get a GS Magnetic head and a main motor from Leon based on what you are telling me, just in case I ever decide to get a GS1200. Probably will stick with Beaulieu, but you just never know in life and these would never go to waste over here.

150 hours!! Jeez.. I do that in a month. Ha ha

I must admit, I must suffer with O.C.D. or reverse psychology a little being an engineer, as I wouldn't dream of purchasing a GS1200 nowadays without already having the necessary essential spares first.Forever the pessimist through experience on these things, me thinks. l.o.l.

[ September 02, 2014, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Timothy Ramzyk
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee,WI,USA
Registered: Nov 2006

posted September 01, 2014 11:44 PM

Well good, I wasn't crazy. My Eumig got muffled sounding in the first couple years, but my Elmo's never did. I always thought it was because my Eumig was supposedly "self-cleaning," and I though some debris built up on it that I couldn't swab off.

From the sound of things, it just wore out.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted September 02, 2014 08:40 AM

You mean by the lack of sound of things it just wore out. [Big Grin]

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted September 02, 2014 01:00 PM

I had no idea that Eumig sound heads were rated so low in they're optimum level of great performance! On my 926 stereo, I must admit that the balance stripe sound is a little muffled these days, which is a shame.

I like Maurice's idea! Although, I'd rather get a 938 stereo this next time! I just love the audio quality of the Eumig stereo models!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted September 02, 2014 01:27 PM

The balance stripe side of the head always wears first on all models. This is the one to listen to (track 2) if you get chance to test a projector out before you buy.

If the balance track is loud and clear and shows the same output levels on a VU meter as track 1, the head should have lots of life left in it.

Another advantage with buying a Bauer or Beaulieu is they come with two heads. One is only used as a monitoring head during recording which tends to be little more than a gimmick in use. But what it does mean, is you can save the monitoring head as a spare and fit a worn out one in its place. I purchased a worn head off German E Bay for just a couple of euros and as a result I have a decent spare. I don't know of any Eumig's that have this arrangement, certainly the Elmo's don't, nor the 938.

As good as the 938 is, the head situation and spare part availability in general,would prevent me from buying another nowadays.You cannot even get hold of the patented toothed drive belt nowadays once it fails!

Also the 610 with it's Schneider lens and near silent running noise is a far superior machine to use in the home environment IMHO. From standard, it gives off a far sharper, brighter picture and has decent sound when slaved. Does an outstanding job of re-recording films also just to cap it off.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

posted September 02, 2014 01:54 PM

David I've always been wary of worn out Bauer heads: they have such a shape and the gaps protrude so little from the head's case that, when the mag gaps have gone, I am afraid they might start to scratch the film... [Frown]

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Maurizio

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