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Author Topic: Sound Striper
Tom Dee
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Phoenix AZ, USA
Registered: Oct 2014

- posted January 04, 2015 10:09 PM      Profile for Tom Dee   Email Tom Dee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Has anyone on here ever heard of a Perfecto Dual 8MM sound stripper, would I be right in assuming that the word "dual" means it does both super 8mm and standard 8mm? And has anyone ever used one before...if so how easy or hard was it to use. Any info on this would be appreciated.

Thanks

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 05, 2015 02:42 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom,

I'm never used this machine, however looking at pictures of the Perfecto Striper gives me the impression that it's not made nearly as well as the Weberling, Supersound or Juwel machines.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Tom Dee
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Phoenix AZ, USA
Registered: Oct 2014

- posted January 05, 2015 10:00 PM      Profile for Tom Dee   Email Tom Dee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Doug thanks for the info, have you ever used any of the 2 machines you mentioned? and if so how well did they work? and how easy were they to use?

Thanks
Tom

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

- posted January 06, 2015 06:17 AM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi, Tom. I do have experience with the Weberling. Its design is very neat and well conceived. It is very well built and solid. Very simple to use and precise: if the film has good splicing, the end result will not disappoint you, even when recording music on splices (a low level "plop" will still be audible, but not very easily; in any case that also depends on how thick the splices are).

In order to get better results, you must have a long leader before the actual film, so that you can fine-tune the knob which regulates the exact positiong of the stripe relative to film edge (i.e. not too inwards nor too outwards: there must be a split-hair between tape edge and film edge).

This machine can apply both stripes (even in one run, if you are bold enough.... Me I prefer going a track at a time [Wink] ).

Good luck searching

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Maurizio

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Luigi Castellitto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 715
From: Campobasso, Italy
Registered: Jun 2013

- posted January 06, 2015 08:18 AM      Profile for Luigi Castellitto   Email Luigi Castellitto   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maurizio, at 95% should have come into possession of a Bolex Weberling, the model Duo Sound Ds 240.
I trust in an easy to use, I found the manual online, at first I take your advice to put a little white "tail" to set well the application of stripe.
Only thing: I should get a MAIN strip of Agfa F5 0.8mm and glue, taken from FFR.de film (Tom: this European store has accessories suitable for magnetic stripe), but at the moment, I have no availability to buy even a roll of balance stripe (0,45mm at FFR.de).
Do you think it can be a problem?
I'm ready to have famous one side of film with less focus in the projection, others think there are not even, apart not use stereo sound, but I not have a stereo projector, and the second audio channel, but I was not use it... Ah, it's a problem that is an Orwo and not Agfa? Because FFR have the 0,45mm balance/second audio only from Orwo.

If all goes well I can confirm you too, Tom, the goodness of this machine, which really is not very easy to find, are a bit 'rare.

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Tom Dee
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Phoenix AZ, USA
Registered: Oct 2014

- posted January 06, 2015 01:14 PM      Profile for Tom Dee   Email Tom Dee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you Maurizio and Luigi for the info. Maurizio if by chance you have any video footage of you using this machine, I would love to see a demo on that. Thanks again to both of you.

Tom

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

- posted January 06, 2015 02:36 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Luigi, apart from stereo recording needs, balance stripe is only (rather) necessary if you use projection lenses faster than 1.2. It also depends on your degree of acceptability. Not necessary at all if you have a rear pressure film gate.

Orwo balance stripe is OK, although it tends to leave some oxide on the head. Quality wise it's excellent.

Nnext time I do some striping, I'll film it and post on youtube. Luigi you have the same Bolex/Weberling that I have. Is it black or white?

--------------------
Maurizio

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Luigi Castellitto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 715
From: Campobasso, Italy
Registered: Jun 2013

- posted January 06, 2015 03:40 PM      Profile for Luigi Castellitto   Email Luigi Castellitto   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom, I suggest you take a look also to ads on Kijiji and similar, I've seen more stipe machine there than on the usual eBay.

Maurizio, I will use to project and sonorize an Elmo 600 ST 600D M 2 Track, which 1.3 lens, but not rear pressure gate; a bit of focus difference would not give me trouble, we'll see how it goes. However, I can also add the balance stripe when buy it, in the future.
For the balance which brand you use? Perhaps ffr.de earlier had also Agfa for 0,45mm?
The Bolex/Weberling it's black model.

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

- posted January 06, 2015 04:04 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I had experience with Orwo tracks on German prints of recent features, but for my own (self-produced) works I still use original Weberling, Agfa F5-based stripe. Sometimes you can find it on ebay.

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Maurizio

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Luigi Castellitto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 715
From: Campobasso, Italy
Registered: Jun 2013

- posted January 07, 2015 01:24 PM      Profile for Luigi Castellitto   Email Luigi Castellitto   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I understand, thanks Maurizio.
So, I wait the tutorial too, you will definitely useful.

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

- posted January 08, 2015 11:33 AM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Luigi, where are you based? Perhaps we could catch up and make your striper work: I striped a lot of footage not long ago and I am not going to stripe anything in the near future.

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Maurizio

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Luigi Castellitto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 715
From: Campobasso, Italy
Registered: Jun 2013

- posted January 11, 2015 02:59 PM      Profile for Luigi Castellitto   Email Luigi Castellitto   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm in the center-south of Italy (where I translated well "based").
First of all, I control the state of the machine (I confirmed the purchase, but it will come to me in ten days), then I'll do some testing with both, Regular 8 and Super 8, we hope everything goes well.
I'll keep you updated!

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Luigi Castellitto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 715
From: Campobasso, Italy
Registered: Jun 2013

- posted January 13, 2015 05:40 PM      Profile for Luigi Castellitto   Email Luigi Castellitto   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The striping machine arrived and I tried it immediately: small initial difficulties, must have precision and patience, but the machine is easy by those who have a little practice with the film and our world.
I inform you on subsequent tests!

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted January 14, 2015 07:24 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom,

Did you ever get the Perfecto?

Doug

--------------------
I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Tom Dee
Film Handler

Posts: 62
From: Phoenix AZ, USA
Registered: Oct 2014

- posted January 15, 2015 12:36 AM      Profile for Tom Dee   Email Tom Dee   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No Doug I did not get it, I think most of my home movies are polyester and I read that these striping machines work best on acetate films.

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Luigi Castellitto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 715
From: Campobasso, Italy
Registered: Jun 2013

- posted January 15, 2015 06:42 AM      Profile for Luigi Castellitto   Email Luigi Castellitto   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tom, so, these machines work better with acetate, also the glue that I have is ONLY for acetate, I can't use it with the polyester film that I have too.
I know that some laboratory can also put the stripe on the polyester film, but I don't know what method or machines they use, someone on the forum will be able to explain it better.
I could not tell if possible insert the stripe on the polyester films with these "home" machine.

P.S. Maurizio, you have a PM.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

- posted January 15, 2015 11:55 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Polyester has to pasted and cannot be striped as far as I am aware using a "Home" striping machine.
Even when done professionally the paste often doesn't bond too well on Ester film, especially if the film has been treated with a cleaning chemical.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

- posted January 15, 2015 12:24 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My goodness!

When I was experimenting with that sound striper about a year back (sent on to Dino), I wonder if the problem with the sound stripe sticking to the film, was the very film print I was using? I forget what kind of film it was (acetate or polyester), but that would have made a world of difference if the glue used for the striping would only work with this or that film stock!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

- posted January 15, 2015 12:30 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To clarify: the solvent (because that's what it actually is not 'glue') to be used on acetate prints, will have no effect whatsoever on (poly)estar prints. Perhaps the stripe will adhere for a while but will soon come away.

Estar needs a thouroughly different approach, based on a semi-liquid magnetic stripe which is laid on the film by a bulky professional striping machine, as big as a cupboard. It's much more complicated to use than regular (laminated) striping and to the best of my knowledge, only ANdec in Berlin can still do that, albeit only for the main track.

--------------------
Maurizio

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Luigi Castellitto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 715
From: Campobasso, Italy
Registered: Jun 2013

- posted January 15, 2015 02:03 PM      Profile for Luigi Castellitto   Email Luigi Castellitto   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have some Fujichrome R25N, shot in Single 8, and you are right: only Andec or who has the machinery and technology for polyester can apply the stripe.

@Maurizio, or who have a Weberling: you applied a leader even at the end of the film or you leave the final stretch of the film without the band?
Because Weberling leaves me a few inches without band in the end of film; normal, because the film goes away from the rollers and the band is not applied. While a leader even at the end of film I could recover that space on the final stretch.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

- posted January 16, 2015 04:55 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
And that Osi is precisely why a home striping business would never work in this era. Absolutely useless in the the vast majority of cases of what people would want striped.
Certainly in terms of anything other than home made films.

Paste striping is an exact science and one which even when mastered produces very hit and miss results, especially if the Polyester film has already been treated.
This is the reason why anything after the pre striped stock was discontinued, produced very erratic results, even though the titles released by Derann in that era were some of their best ever.

As has been posted on here many many times, Derek Simmonds spent months and months perfecting his process before he had anything worthy for distribution in those difficult years when pre striped stock was no longer.
It also cost him over £10k and several MILES of wasted film before he was able to get his process good enough. It very nearly put Derann out of business well before they finally closed their doors for the very last time.

This is also the reason why people have tried to re-record some of these titles but often it is impossible to get satisfactory results, especially on the grey coloured pasted stripe they were forced to use towards the end.
Very often the balance stripe would at times simply peel away in no time at all!

If someone of Dereks expertise and love for film, not to mention his beloved business being put at stake, struggled to that extent...,
what chance does anyone in the home environment have or anyone else in general for that matter?

Furthermore some of the chemicals he used in that era are apparently outlawed in europe now as they are deemed environmentally unsafe.

Quite frankly it's a miracle even Andec will take on this task in this day and age.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

- posted January 16, 2015 08:18 AM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Luigi, what you describe is pretty normal; so you must apply an end leader and stop the striper as soon as the final leader is broght past the striping spot on the machine.
Re the query you sent me via PM,, I disadvice you to bypass the sprocket when striping Reg 8, because the speed of the take up reel tends to vary quite a bit from start to finish, plush its clutch might slip more than desirable, since it is not meant to pull the film across the whole machine but only to.. well... take up the just striped film. Unfortunately I've never come across such an accessory for this Weberling/Bolex striper; in fact I suspect it might have been a standard accessory supplied as a bundle with the rest of the striper. Who knows?

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Maurizio

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Luigi Castellitto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 715
From: Campobasso, Italy
Registered: Jun 2013

- posted January 16, 2015 11:43 AM      Profile for Luigi Castellitto   Email Luigi Castellitto   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you, Maurizio!
For the Normal 8 adapter: I've seen only a picture online of a user who has a pair for Super 8, and not sell them, I think you're right.
But, then, you have it or not?
I might try this: I cover with something the sprocket for super 8 film and I pass the normal 8 film above, without docking. But I don't know if the film runs at the correct speed, the same.
I bought the machine also for the normal 8, I'd hate not being able to use them for that.

EDIT: Looking online a modification of scanning machine adapted to the Super 8 I thought: maybe I could find something to substitute, fine for the normal 8, to be inserted instead of the spool for Super 8. Online there are little weel with sprocket for sale, who knows if you can adapt something.

[ January 17, 2015, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Luigi Castellitto ]

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

- posted January 18, 2015 01:06 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The sprocket should have such a diameter as to have the film running at a certain speed, not too fast nor too slow as these are critical factors: if the transport is too slow, the stripe might melt right above the gluing area; if it's tto fast , the stripe might break. Of course there should be a certain tolerance, though.

--------------------
Maurizio

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Luigi Castellitto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 715
From: Campobasso, Italy
Registered: Jun 2013

- posted January 18, 2015 06:23 PM      Profile for Luigi Castellitto   Email Luigi Castellitto   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There remains only the possibility of building it from someone.
There's a site that manufactures sprockets, but it's very expensive, price exceeding the value of the whole machine; perhaps some user forums can help me, at more cheaply.

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