8mm Forum: The worst VS I have ever had

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Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 06, 2016, 09:28 PM:

I opened my Robin Hood (3x400') stored in its original plastic case, and found it has VS with no picture left on the cells:

I thought VS will only make film wrapped, but this one is even worst. You can see nothing on the cells, make it just like a film leader...while I took it from the middle of the reel... [Mad]

Have you ever got this experience?

Posted by Terry Sills (Member # 3309) on January 07, 2016, 01:45 AM:

I have had films with VS but nothing like that. Absolutely nothing anyone can do about a film in this condition. Get it away from the rest of your film and destroy it. Personally I would burn it.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on January 07, 2016, 02:31 AM:

Winbert
It could be due partly to where you live.
Today in Jakarta the temperature is 35C, today in Bristol it is 10C.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on January 07, 2016, 04:35 AM:

Terrible picture !

Posted by Gary Crawford (Member # 67) on January 07, 2016, 06:36 AM:

Are we sure that it's really vinegar and not some other form of decomposition? For such a recent film print,comparatively, it's almost inconceivable that there would be that kind of decomp. I have had 16mm prints that were over 50 years old get vinegar...but this is like nothing I've ever seen. It looks almost like nitrate prints I've seen that were down to almost jelly. Long exposure to water somewhere along the line might cause it.... it's just hard to believe that it's only vinegar syndrome on such a relatively young print. I've seen 16mm prints after they have been stored in an unairconditioned storage unit in hot Florida for 20 years...and the ones that had problems were NOTHING like what you are showing.
Very odd. Hopefully the real reel experts can deduce the problem. Maybe it IS vinegar, but .....wow.!!!!

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on January 07, 2016, 10:00 AM:

I agree with Gary, this film has experienced somekind of abnormal abuse sometime in its life. I have seen film that has been stored in hot sheds in Florida, and although faded and shrunk they show nothing like this.

Posted by Dave Groves (Member # 4685) on January 07, 2016, 10:05 AM:

Does it have the usual VS smell? I've been collecting and exhibiting films for over 50 years and never seen anything like that.

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on January 07, 2016, 11:25 AM:

Maybe that is water damage....I have some old 8mm films that have had some water damage and the image has been wiped off the films.

I also have some VS 16mm and they look ok other than warp and terrible smell.

Bill [Smile]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on January 07, 2016, 12:09 PM:

Our old friend Gary Brocklehurst told me he had rarely to never seen a Super-8 print with VS because most of 'em aren't printed on acetate.

So the stink is the thing!

-does it smell like a salad?

This could be an exception to Brocklehurst's Law!
Murphy's Law is still safe! (-always will be!)

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on January 07, 2016, 12:19 PM:

Looks like holes, almost as if the print was "burned", so to speak - If the rest of it is this way, there is nothing that can be done - Make sure your other prints are okay - I can't think of any solution, except to say the weather (humidity) might have played into this - Cheers, Shorty

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 07, 2016, 12:37 PM:

Winbert ...

Aren't you the fellow who also had the AGFA print of the 400ft "Raider of the Lost Ark" (400ft digest), that went bad as well?

If so, I wonder if it's something in you're actual home environment that could be the cause? That's never a pleasant thought, but could there be some kind of chemical being released by something in the house that, while it hasn't harmed you per se (good heavens, let us hope not!), yet, those self-same chemicals could have an obviously detrimental effect on film?

I'd have no idea as to what, insulations, chemicals from paint used in the house?

I certainly don't want to alarm you in a bad way, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

OSI

Posted by Vidar Olavesen (Member # 3354) on January 07, 2016, 01:02 PM:

That was probably my print Osi. I have three films with VS but they have more or less stopped smelling. One of them was really bad smelling when I got it. Been lying on my speaker for three years and now I can hardly smell vinegar at all

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on January 07, 2016, 01:20 PM:

Hello, Vidar. Glad to see you posting. Hope you feel better. I heard you were not healthy lately. To come back to the topic, whant do you mean by "Been lying on my speaker for three years..." ?

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on January 08, 2016, 01:15 AM:

Guys thanks for the comments. below is the facts:

1. It was bought from Germany
2. Released by UFA
3. Printed on Kodak (acetate)
4. It was in color
5. Housed on UFA plastic case type.
6. It was stored with other UFA films, other seem to be OK
7. It did smell VS
8. Two years ago tt was shrunk and wrapped like other VS contaminated films and then came to like this yesterday
9. All three reels showed the same situation
10. They were dry (not got wet for any reason)

So I guess with those facts above, I can summarize UFA had printed some films with different formulas that may have been like mine if it gets VS.

Posted by Vidar Olavesen (Member # 3354) on January 08, 2016, 07:03 AM:

Thanks Dominique, yes my health hasn't been too good. Had a brainstroke and not all back yet.

I mean I bought the 16mm print three years ago and ran it once when I got it. Smelled horrible. I just kept the box open on my speaker and now it doesn't smell much at all. Norway is cold, not sure that has anything to do with it. It still might be too dry or warping (not seeing anything wrong with it thought). How do you treat your VS prints? Closed in a box or open? The speakers magnetism shouldn't be anything, but weird that it stopped smelling

Posted by Christian Schatz (Member # 2961) on January 08, 2016, 08:35 AM:

Last stage of decomposition on an acetate print infected with VS.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on January 08, 2016, 09:13 AM:

I put the only VS print I have in the bathroom as it is the only place without films where I live. The film is still on the reel but not boxed (before it was in a plastic can). I cleaned the film several times with Filmguard and once with alcool but the smell is still there (nice when I brush my teeth). I wanted to try a wipe with Feebreze but I couldn't find that in Belgium.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 08, 2016, 12:16 PM:

Good heavens Vidar! Good to hear that you are on the mend! We missed ya, good man!

Posted by Jonathan Trevithick (Member # 3066) on January 09, 2016, 08:39 AM:

I once came across some 35mm film in an old movie theatre's projection box which looked like this. It stank of VS. However, the contents were much older than your film, Winbert.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on January 10, 2016, 04:30 PM:

i never heard a super 8 print getting VS.

Posted by Timothy Ramzyk (Member # 718) on January 21, 2016, 12:42 AM:

They do, I have a little rascals 50' reel and a 20 Million Mile To Earth 200' digest that reek on vinegar and are warped.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on January 21, 2016, 11:00 AM:

I've never had a super 8 print with VS, but I have had the rare standard 8mm print with VS.

Posted by Timothy Ramzyk (Member # 718) on January 21, 2016, 03:21 PM:

Perhaps, it's a matter of more 8mm being older than Super 8mm?

Acetate is acetate, made of cellulose which gives off acetic acid as it breaks down, so the gauge shouldn't have much to do with it unless wider gauges trap more air VS surface area when wound on a reel, allowing less gas to escape. That and the bigger gauges are more likely to be stored in air-tight cans.

My guess is that all prints are slowly breaking down, but that some things accelerate the process. Warm, humid storage, bad initial processing, and air tight storage resulting in the build-up of acetic fumes. I know my 16mm collectors now religiously drill vents in their film-cans, and quarantine all effected prints.

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on January 21, 2016, 03:30 PM:

Well, I was wrong again, as there are 8mm prints which suffer the fate as other gaugaes - I still feel cardborad boxes are the way to go - Storage is air-filled enough, even in hotter weather, just keep everything at a cool temperature - At least, I've had on-going success this way for years - Shorty

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on January 21, 2016, 04:09 PM:

Most commercial Super-8 prints are on polyester base, which is entirely immune.

-but...

All of our Kodak home movies are on acetate. Being that they are impossible to replace once they go, this is a real problem.

-great for splicing, but more mortal than we'd like.

I moved all of mine out of steel cans years ago.

Posted by Timothy Ramzyk (Member # 718) on January 21, 2016, 05:03 PM:

Oh I wanted to add that, I used to transfer home movies to digital and they too would occasionally have gone vinegar.

Acetate film is not dissimilar in it's composition to a newsprint comic book, all cellulose is primarily refined organic wood pulp. When comics break down they give off the same acids. Some 5o-year-old comics look great for their age, some are yellow and too brittle read. Storage conditions, breathing, and quality of the original material are all key.

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