8mm Forum: Projectors with ability to record sound...why?

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Posted by Dan Peterson (Member # 4545) on September 18, 2016, 04:21 PM:

Hi All,
Relatively new to this forum...
I see a lot of Super 8 sound projectors that a jack for a microphone and therefore the ability to record sound. Correct?
But why? The projected films already have sound (I assume).
Does this allow you to record on pre-existing prints? Are you adding a new soundtrack to a silent film? An additional track on a current sound film?
Can you give this novice a few real-world scenarios where someone would record with a mic on film? Or what's happening here?
Sorry for a question that might have a very obvious answer!
Thx!

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on September 18, 2016, 04:31 PM:

Hello Dan. Many people started with silent material (projector and camera), so when an amateur bought a sound projector he wanted to sonorize the film he took before having a sound camera. You can of course imagine several other situations : someone started directly with sound material but had old family films taken by someone else in the family, one could buy a sound projector but wanted to keep a good silent camera and so on.

Posted by Melvin England (Member # 5270) on September 18, 2016, 05:34 PM:

Dan - Not a good idea to try to add sound to a pre existing package movie. Unless you have the correct synchronization equipment it will be a mess..... and you couldn't really sell on any print you tampered with.

Projectors have the recording facility so that any silent films that have either got or have had added a sound stripe on the edge can have atmospheric sounds added(EG the sound of traffic on a street scene)or musical sound track.

I must admit, I have never seen the point in having a microphone input because one shouldn't be adding a voice over straight onto film.It should be rehearsed, recorded onto tape/cd etc to get it right, and then transferred via a different input onto the film.It sounds much better and more professional.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 18, 2016, 06:03 PM:

On the contrary I'd say Melvin for some of the later pasted stripe stuff out there.

I'd be truly embarrassed offering some of the original sound tracks up for sale without the ability to record them all again from modern day digital master material.

Almost all I've ever come across can be made far far better than they ever were originally with the correct recording projectors and software.

In answer to Dan's original question, many Super 8mm sound projectors allowed quite advanced facilities for adding sound on sound (layering) onto main track, balance track or both.
This allowed for live sound from your camera back then, to be layered with background or foreground music or narrative accompaniment using the microphone input, while also varying the levels of each separate layer to make a nice professional sounding soundtrack.

Many of the later high end Super 8mm editors offered the same.

Nowadays of course, all of this can be done with ease using digital software before later adding the finished soundtrack in one run onto the projector via the auxiliary connections,but back then, the above mentioned methods offered by far the most professional and successful results for any layered soundtrack especially on two track machines where you could continually transfer one track to another as the layers were assembled.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on September 18, 2016, 10:23 PM:

Dan, just to give you more information that some projectors have the ability to record sound on sound. It means you can add the sound to the existing sound.

When shooting with sound cartridge you will already have the original sound, e.g human voice/narrator, cars, birds, etc. Later on at home, after processing, you can add with musical soundtrack.

The projector will have the the balance knob where the most left is keeping the original soundtrack, and the most right is adding the new soundtrack. You can turn in between depending which one you one to hear most.

Some stereo projectors can also move the original song to the balance track (left channel). Later you can erase the main track, and put a new soundtrack. This means you film will have bilingual soundtrack.
cheers,

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 18, 2016, 11:08 PM:

Let's not forget a lot of projectors have a public address feature and this needs the mic. too.

Since my machines are connected into an external amp and speakers I could actually open up the windows and use this to yell at the whole neighborhood!

(There are days!...)

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on September 19, 2016, 06:35 AM:

And of course the obvious one is for people who shoot there own films on super 8 will build up there soundtracks using there projectors.

as we did many years ago. [Wink]

Posted by Dan Peterson (Member # 4545) on September 19, 2016, 11:21 AM:

Thanks for all the insightful information to fill in the gaps!
Fascinating that this was possible but it seems like it would be quite nerve-wracking technically (compared to digital sound editing these days).

One last question: So could you add audio tracks on all Super 8 film (e.g. that had been recorded silent), or did it have to have special magnetic striping added (how was that done?)? Was there special magnetically striped S8 film? Could you add tracks to today's film (like Tri-X reversal)?

Posted by Tom Spielman (Member # 5352) on September 19, 2016, 11:37 AM:

Magnetic strips were not on every film cartridge and Kodak no longer makes any Super 8 film with them. My understanding is that there are/were machines available that could add these strips to film without them.

Some cameras have been modified to use the part of film that had been reserved for audio to produce a larger, wide screen image called "Mega 8" or "Super Duper 8". I believe Kodak's new camera is supposed to do that as well.

Camera's with "Crystal Sync" can produce film that can be synchronized with sound recorded externally. This typically ends up in a digital format.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on September 19, 2016, 11:47 AM:

Dan, any reversal filmstock can be stripped. It is still possible to do that by a lab (but it is not cheap). There are also stripping machines to do the job at home but some people succeed more than others ( I didn't succeed :-)

Posted by Melvin England (Member # 5270) on September 19, 2016, 12:14 PM:

Andrew - I was referring to adding extra sound on top of existing sound on package movies, as I have heard done a couple of times and sounds awful. I completely agree that sometimes the original soundtrack does leave a lot to be desired in the way of audio quality,and that a total re-record of the full reel can significantly improve it.I have heard it.That does require skill and patience and the necessary sync.package that may be beyond the abilities of a lot of people,myself included.

Dan - The information offered by Andrew and all the other contributors to this post is good solid advice that I hope will help you through your super 8 experience.
In response to your 2nd thread on this post, only film that has a magnetic sound stripe down the side of the film can have sound added.You can usually tell if it is sound striped, as it is normally brown in colour and mostly found on the opposite edge of the film from the sprocket holes.This is called the main stripe. You also can get a much thinner stripe down the edge with the sprocket holes.This is called the balance stripe and can also be used to add sound,if the projector is capable of recording on the balance stripe.... not all of them are. The balance stripe is also used if a package movie has stereo sound.
As far as silent film is concerned, I am not sure if there are still companies that do sound striping, or,indeed, whether the stripe is still available for the machines where one can do it themselves. I will throw that one open to our other forum friends who may be able to shed more light on the subject.....

Footnote.

As I was writing this, Dominique posted a thread that answers the striping question.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 19, 2016, 01:06 PM:

Ah thanks Melvin for that clarification. Apologies my friend, I instinctively assumed, incorrectly, that you were referring to the complete re recording of package movies per se.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 20, 2016, 11:57 AM:

I think that it has already been stated, but some folks would add "commentaries" to thier home movies on the balance stripe with those old terrible little mics that came with the projectors back then. I have ran into a few of these off of ebay, and they can sometimes be quite entertaining.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on September 20, 2016, 12:19 PM:

At one time many small (and not so small) companies offered laminate striping services in the UK, including some of the striping machine manufactures (Superstripe).

At one time even Derann offered paste striping for silent films, when they were still using the single width machine, there own films were striped pre-slitting from double rank if I recall correctly.

Cine clubs could make up complex track by a number of members operating several tape recorders and mixing cued effects, though this took a few dummy runs.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 20, 2016, 01:45 PM:

The layering of soundtracks to our home movies could finish up a real work of art with some imagination, accurate timing and technical ability added alongside the "live" sound from the camera.

Some finished up very professional indeed on the Super 8mm gauge with the double laminated stripe and if you used many of the features available on the later machines, anything you wanted from a soundtrack, was very possible.

Happy Days indeed.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on September 20, 2016, 03:29 PM:

Don't forget it is still possible to have silent films striped : http://www.ffr-film.de/eng-bespurung-.html

Posted by Dave Groves (Member # 4685) on September 21, 2016, 11:14 AM:

What an interesting insight into how thinhs have moved on. Dan obviously has no knowledge of cine cameras and how we used to take them on holiday and film the children laughing and talking. Reminds me of a few years ago when I was putting on a show in a hall. A young lady I knew well stood looking at the projector and said 'What does it do'. She'd never seen a film projector. Bit like my son who'd never seen a lump of coal till we went out into the street and spoke to the coalman who showed him a lump. Now who ever sees a coalman. Things progress so quickly!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 21, 2016, 11:40 AM:

I'd like to find it, (as I've obviously lost it), but i once got ahold of that terribly dated but funny music that always seemed to accompany educational films, and added my own soundtrack to it for comedy effect. Thanks for rweminding me ... time to check out the back storage room!

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 21, 2016, 12:20 PM:

I'd like to find it, (as I've obviously lost it), but i once got ahold of that terribly dated but funny music that always seemed to accompany educational films, and added my own soundtrack to it for comedy effect. Thanks for reminding me ... time to check out the back storage room!

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on September 23, 2016, 10:43 AM:

I started filming with standard 8 in the fifties, then changed to Super 8 in the sixties.
In the seventies I bought a Eumig 807D (dual-gauge). All the two gauges were sent away for a magnetic sound stripe to be added. The Eumig then worked overtime adding commentaries.
A portable cassette recorder then accompanied my Super 8 filming, the sound added later as "wild" to the film.
Then Kodak introduced sound cameras and pre-striped film in 50ft cartridges. So from the mid seventies I had fully synchronised sound films of the family, etc.
The family got older and no longer enjoyed being filmed by Dad and being cajoled to "say something" for the camera.
They are all in a cupboard on edited 200ft spools, but the best were later transferred to DVDs.
It's probably some twenty years since I filmed. The clock has turned full circle, pre-striped Kodachrome film is no longer available.

Posted by Tom Spielman (Member # 5352) on September 23, 2016, 02:11 PM:

Maurice: A few years ago I was listening to one of my favorite radio programs called "This American Life" The basic premise behind the show is that they get mostly ordinary people to talk about events in their lives. Every show has a theme and they have about 4 different people tell their stories revolving around that theme.

One show might be about first jobs and another might be stories about how small lies turned into elaborate deceptions that eventually came crashing down. Another was about an undercover FBI agent who was assigned to get close to and keep tabs on an individual they thought was suspicious. The problem was that his guy never did anything remotely illegal and didn't appear to be very interested in doing so. It was the FBI agent's job for years and it weighed on him.

Anyway, this particular week there was a portion of the program devoted to home movies. They had people watch and react to home movies from their childhood. Some of them hadn't seen the movies in 20 years or more. One family's movies were markedly different. Instead of holidays, birthdays, and the like, there were movies of them sitting down to dinner, chatting in the kitchen, or watching TV. One of the younger kids might be having a tantrum. Not necessarily happy, smiley stuff but still entertaining.

What was almost universal though is that the home movie making came to an abrupt end once the youngest child reached 12 or 13. The film/video history just stops. I see that happening in my own family. I make a picture book and DVD every year as a gift to my wife for Mother's day. There has been markedly less material to work with the last couple of years.

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on September 23, 2016, 02:17 PM:

My copy of Film Collector #15 from Phil arrived yesterday and would you believe it, there are 2 articles that mention recording film commentaries and track laying on amateur films.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 23, 2016, 04:06 PM:

I try not to record my own voice...

Every time I play it back I hear my father!

(-How did that happen?!)

Oh well...at least I haven't started yelling at the other cars when I drive...yet!

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on September 24, 2016, 02:32 AM:

When I had my first tape recorder in the fifties, no one, not even myself, believed that the replayed recording was their own voice.

Posted by Dan Peterson (Member # 4545) on October 01, 2016, 07:06 PM:

Well, this is very timely.
I came across this video on the Reddit 8mm forum today. :-)
It's all about Super 8 sound and striping!

A Sound Idea

Enjoy!

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