8mm Forum: Would a sealed copy of 8mm film retain its colors?

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Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on March 17, 2017, 12:47 PM:

Would a sealed copy of commercial 8mm color film retain its colors after 30+ years? I have yet seen a commercial 8mm movie that has good colors.

Posted by Daniel Macarone (Member # 5102) on March 17, 2017, 01:18 PM:

Hi Robert, The film still being shrink-wrapped is not a guarantee that it will still have perfect color. I once bought a 200' film still sealed and the color had some fade. Wether sealed or unsealed, it depends on storage conditions.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on March 17, 2017, 01:25 PM:

Robert - haven't you seen any colour prints from around 1983 to the present day? Practically all such releases are low-fade prints that now look as good as when they were sold.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on March 17, 2017, 01:31 PM:

Commercial 8mm movie film from 1983+ exists? I thought film was destroyed by VHS/Betamax in the early 80s. I've only seen 8mm movies from the 1970s or earlier.
I didn't know LPP exists for 8mm film, I thought it's only for 16mm.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on March 17, 2017, 02:03 PM:

Robert, super 8mm film is still being printed!

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on March 17, 2017, 02:22 PM:

I'm talking about commercial 8mm movies though, not blank film for home movies. I searched "LPP 8MM" on ebay nothing came up. Does anyone know when was the last movie released on 8mm film?

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 17, 2017, 02:26 PM:

CHC in the UK and the Reel Image in the US still release super 8 films.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 02:29 PM:

Robert, Paul used the word Printed to indicate he was meaning Commercially made films not camera stock.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on March 17, 2017, 02:33 PM:

The question is can the public buy them at affordable prices? Reel Image doesn't seem to be selling any Super 8 movies. https://thereelimage.jimdo.com/steve-s-online-film-deals/

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 02:37 PM:

It depends what you regard as affordable Robert? Yes, they are still selling newly produced prints from the labs.

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on March 17, 2017, 02:40 PM:

Robert, from what I understood, The Reel Image doesn't sell online : you have to call or to write to them.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on March 17, 2017, 02:41 PM:

Robert,

While the websites may not be updated, you can contact both CHC & The Reel Image to subscribe to their magazines & mailing lists.

As for what's been happening since 1983, Derann Films put out new releases till 2011. Use the Forum's search feature and you'll discover plenty!

Doug

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on March 17, 2017, 02:51 PM:

Looks like the way to buy Derann films is from the For sale/trade/wanted forums. I wonder what I can get for USD40. ^^; This is what I mean by affordable.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on March 17, 2017, 02:57 PM:

Robert,

Both also have used film lists, which would more in line with that amount.

Doug

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on March 17, 2017, 02:59 PM:

OK. Hopefully the used films still has excellent colors. Just searched Derann on ebay, most are not affordable. [Frown]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 03:41 PM:

With due respect Robert, even in 1977 when many now faded prints were brand new with beautiful colors, you wouldn't get much more than a 400ft digest for $40.

I remember being a schoolkid back then ordering films from my Mums mail order catalogue and using 38 weeks paper round money to pay for one film! [Wink]

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on March 17, 2017, 03:42 PM:

Hahahaha but the hardware is so cheap. I thought the software would be cheap as well. Guess not.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on March 17, 2017, 03:51 PM:

I'm afraid not Robert. Not in Film land.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 17, 2017, 04:02 PM:

quote:
Hahahaha but the hardware is so cheap. I thought the software would be cheap as well. Guess not.

I guess this also applies in today's technology, e.g computer, when you are dealing with a not so common software. [Wink]

Deal with architects software, their price are mostly tripled the hardware's price. [Razz]

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on March 17, 2017, 07:47 PM:

Robert - you're discovering a strange phenomenon regarding the world of Super 8. Although very large amounts of Super 8 releases have been printed and sold since 1983 - and arguably the 8mm 'golden era' was around 1985 to 1995, you see far more evidence of what was produced earlier. That's partly because of the number of prints being produced of popular titles in the 'mass market' era before video fully took off, but it also reflects the quality and lack of fade that characterises much of the later product, resulting in collectors tending to hang on to it. But keep looking and you will find good affordable b/w and even good colour 400' digests. E.g. forum member Nigel Higgins was recently offering some brand new (old stock) non-faded ones for much less than $40.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on March 17, 2017, 07:50 PM:

Is there a film catalog that was released during 1985-1995?
Currently searching for USA sellers in the For Sale forums.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on March 17, 2017, 08:03 PM:

I think other members might be able to direct you to one or two sources of Derann information - although they weren't responsible for absolutely everything released during this period. But you could also try mentioning a few items you would like to have if available. I'm afraid you won't find large number of digests because a lot of releases were full length features, but there were (e.g.) some very good 600' versions of films such as 'Capricorn One' and 'The Fog'. And there were large numbers of animated and other shorts, trailers, advertisement reels, etc.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 18, 2017, 11:17 AM:

To answer you're original question Robert, yes, super 8 can and will still maintain vibrant wonderful color is it was printed on low fade film stocks ...

Eastman L.P.P. (Low Fade Process)
Agfa film stock (usually marked as "2 S")
Fuji (please note, some fuji fades, ut most fuji printed past 1979, has held it's color well)

... so, yep, great colors abound and the pleasant extra note is that the image quality continued to improve into the 1980 until many super 8 prints actuially equaled the sharpness of you're average 16MM. [Smile]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 18, 2017, 03:05 PM:

Robert, I don't know if you a fan and familiar with Ebay, but if you found a super 8mm comes with a cover like this:

They are printed by Derann in the LPP period.

This lot was sold for $20 or just $4/each.

You can see that here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201779383777

So like my reply in your other post (searching for LPP print below $50 for a minimum 200') you have a big chance, hence don't give up!

Price that tend to increase only applies to a limited category (such as full length Disney, Classic and new releases) but for digest or shorts mostly are declining and affordable. So don't be afraid to enter this Super 8mm league.

Btw Derann has been around since 1970, so it does not mean Derann's name is a name of perfect color. Many Derann prints pre-1980 have also faded.

Another side note, some companies like Walton, MGM and Ken Films have also printed films on LPP or at least Low Fade stock such as AGFA for their 1978-1982 prints. You should ask before buying, this is really a hit and miss business.

Good luck,

Posted by Joe Caruso (Member # 11) on March 20, 2017, 05:47 PM:

I broke my rule, opened a cellophane-sealed 200' Castle Color Travelogue - It's as if it was just printed - The film is perfect - Yet, that is only one example of preserved Eastman no-fade - Shorty

Posted by Gilbert Lambert (Member # 5403) on March 23, 2017, 06:43 AM:

I opened two Disneyland Super 8 sound 200' movies still sealed from the seventies and all colours gone .. only red or pink left .. so I would not trust it anymore if on offer ... good luck , it will be a gamble I guess, Gilbert

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 23, 2017, 12:59 PM:

Yep, it all depends on the film stock and, THANK GOODNESS that much of Super 8 switched to low fade film stocks in the early 80's!

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on March 23, 2017, 01:05 PM:

Since Derann 8mm movies are expensive/hard to find, I've been enjoying 16mm B-movies instead. It seems this format is easier to find in good colors.

Posted by Bill Brandenstein (Member # 892) on March 23, 2017, 02:39 PM:

Robert, you should at least be able to score a cartoon or two for under $40 from Derann, Walton, or even some US companies, the key being LPP stock from 1982 or newer.

For example, Vincent Zabbia has the Disney Fox and the Hound extract in low-fade on eBay right now for $25.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 23, 2017, 05:35 PM:

quote:
Since Derann 8mm movies are expensive/hard to find, I've been enjoying 16mm B-movies instead. It seems this format is easier to find in good colors.

If you don't have any problem with the storage, collecting 16mm is of course way better than 8mm, if everything is being in equal condition (negative, lab process, film stock, etc). You double the quality. Some member here have even gone to 35mm which has quadrapled the quality.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on March 23, 2017, 06:32 PM:

Bill, thanks for the tip. So I assume all the 8mm films from 1982+ are Super 8 with sound. I should be searching for these keywords and screenshots of the movies.

Winbert, too bad they didn't make portable 35mm projectors.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 23, 2017, 06:56 PM:

quote:
So I assume all the 8mm films from 1982+ are Super 8 with sound. I should be searching for these keywords and screenshots of the movies

Yes, after 1982 there were only few companies such Derann, Red Fox, CHC that still printed 8mm, and films from that period will be on LPP/Low fade stock. Be familiarize with their cover style and you could snap some films from these companies cheap. On that periode, art work cover were no longer the point of selling, they were usually printed by photo copy machine or even just white blank boxes.

Some sellers (non collectors) could think they were not that precious compared with films from 1970s era which would be more colorful, cover wise. And this means you are lucky!

quote:
Winbert, too bad they didn't make portable 35mm projectors.

Robert, they actualy made. There is a discussion made in a sister of this forum here: Protable 35mm projector

But imagine a full feature of 35mm will take 4 times larger than 8mm.

This is a picture I get from the net:

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 24, 2017, 12:28 PM:

These folks "taint' kidding, Gilbert!

It's amazing what deals you can scoop up on ebay, AND have them be low fade prints! I have been buying a number of rare cartoons from a certain ebayer, and every single print I have bought from him has perfect color, and these are on 400ft reels, two cartoons per reel, approximately 6.00 dollars each, and these are Derann prints, and even the ones that aren't (A Universal 8 Woody cartoon, "Musical Moments from Chopin"), on kodak SP, which usu8ally has fade by now, is absolutely unfaded, totally pristine, so yep, awesome bargains out there!

you can actually build a pretty decent collection of super 8 low fade prints if you just watch ebay and elsewhere on a constant basis. Now, if you want the low fade super 8 features, as a general rule, you WILL pay a good deal more, but to see it on that big screen is always something else! [Smile]

Posted by Fabrizio Mosca (Member # 142) on March 24, 2017, 02:26 PM:

Winbert, unfortunately a full lenght 35mm film is, in terms of occupied space, almost 16 times the corresponding one in super 8... [Frown]

don't forget also the width of the film [Wink]

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on March 24, 2017, 03:16 PM:

Osi, the only way I can watch sites is using keywords notification, otherwise it would be too time consuming. What keywords should I be looking for? Currently I have "Super 8 sound", Derann.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on March 24, 2017, 04:45 PM:

Fabrizio, yes you are right. I forgot the width. So, big no for me collecting 35mm. Super 8mm has been enough for me to fill the nostalgic feelling of celluloid.

Robert, your key word will not work. Should the listing contains Derann or LPP or low fade, this means the seller understand what he/she is selling. So it is rarely you will have a bargain there.

What we are talking is someone found reels in the attic and just want to clear it up.

I have experienced hundreds times of this kind of listing and this is the way I build my collection.

There was a time I bought a F/L on LPP for $150 or 25 of Red Fox/Derann 200' reels for $5/each. There was also a time, a seller thought super 8mm as game cartridges and listed them under this category. Of course gamers would not bid it and they were sold for £0.99 for 3 Walton Film 200'. PS: most Waltons are on Agfa low fade.

I once bought a GS-1200 listed as a VP and no one bid it. You can read the story here: http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005471

For having that, you need to have plenty time searching all Ebay with various keywords. But that is the nice thing of hunting [Smile]

Cheers,

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on March 25, 2017, 11:39 AM:

The way i have always used is either one way or another ...

when it comes to ebay, i'll save in my purchased film lists, the item, so that i can click on that old auction, and on the top, it will usually list (as to where it was found) "Film Stock", then, you simplly click on that, and it will bring up on the left, all the different film stocks ebay lists, 35MM, 16MM, 8MM and Super 8MM, then you simply click those buttons on the left and WHIZ BANG!!

You're right there!

Otherwise, just type in, in that top box, "Film Stocks" and make sure in the box just to the right, that it states "all categories" as, sometimes, some films get "lost in translation", due to strange listings of them on ebay.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on March 25, 2017, 12:05 PM:

Welp, looks like I have to spend some time on ebay once a week now.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on April 26, 2017, 12:51 PM:

Found out the resolution of 8mm film is around 480p for old film stocks and 720p for new film stocks. This is a good reason for me not to spend hundreds of dollars on them. I'll buy 16mm films instead. Higher resolution, better color and most times cheaper too.

I surprised there is a resurgence of interest in Super 8 and Kodak is releasing a new camera.

[ April 26, 2017, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Robert Lee ]

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on April 26, 2017, 05:00 PM:

There is no actual resolution for film because it is not made of pixels. When you transfer it to digital file than the digital file will have that resolution, because it is digital [Wink]

quote:
I surprised there is a resurgence of interest in Super 8 and Kodak is releasing a new camera.

You might be even surprised knowing people taking picture with a Lomo camera in this digital 4K quality.

This is a hobby Robert, if you are not wondering why people run an old 1960s Chevy Impala instead of a new Hyundai...then you will understand why people are running their 8mm films in this today's technology.

[ April 26, 2017, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: Winbert Hutahaean ]

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on April 26, 2017, 06:21 PM:

The resolution of film is usually stated in line pairs per mm Kodachrome 40 was very good, but I would think lower speed print film would be better.

If the resolution was 64 lines/mm (a measurement I seem to remember) then a 6mm wide picture would be 720+ pixels resolution as a line would be represented by white pixel and one black next to it.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on April 28, 2017, 10:42 AM:

quote:
You might be even surprised knowing people taking picture with a Lomo camera in this digital 4K quality.

This is a hobby Robert, if you are not wondering why people run an old 1960s Chevy Impala instead of a new Hyundai...then you will understand why people are running their 8mm films in this today's technology.

True. I just don't like the idea paying a premium price for a product that is technically inferior to it's digital counterpart. Lomo and old cars are cheaper than it's counterpart.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 28, 2017, 10:53 AM:

Then as was pointed out to David Hardy here recently Robert, if you cannot accept the inherent in built imperfections surrounding film, despite its unique and undeniable beauty and charm, then only digital projection will now offer you the flawless quality of image you strive for on a big screen.

Both images are very very different without even bringing into the equation the technical merits and limitations of each.
Only one however can offer a truly flawless image quality even if to some film fanatics such as myself, we find it can almost be a little sterile at times as a result.

I enjoy screening using both methods of technology, but only film offers me personally, a true fascination by some of the images I see appear on screen.
This then also offers me a far greater desire to repeat viewings of the very same film, far more than I gain from a similar movie on a disc.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on April 28, 2017, 11:05 AM:

I love film. I just wish the price more or less represent it's visual quality. I like the quality of 16mm and it's prices. Bought a roll of 35mm film trailer for $10 from ebay and thought it was cool.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 28, 2017, 11:15 AM:

If there were only ever a handful of certain DVDs made available at any given time, no doubt they too would be unbelievably expensive.

If there were tens of thousands of used decent prints around, many of the same popular titles often searched for by collectors, no doubt they now would be extremely cheap to buy.

Supply and demand, as always in any walk of life Robert.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on April 28, 2017, 11:18 AM:

True. It's all about supply and demand. I assume there is not enough demand, hence the lack of supply and high prices.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 28, 2017, 11:21 AM:

There is far more demand than there ever is of quality used popular titles on film, hence the prices that you often see.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on April 28, 2017, 11:24 AM:

I'm talking about newly released films like True Lies digest, Captain America digest, etc from The Reel Image. Prices are like $500 per hour of film. Why can't they make it more affordable like $100-200 per hour of film if there is enough demand? Maybe they should utilize crowd funding to bring down the price to a more affordable level.
Is there another company in the USA that sells newly released 8mm films? I only know of The Reel Image.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 28, 2017, 11:54 AM:

No not that I am aware of Robert. They make so few copies these days, the prices are always this high.
Even in Deranns hey days in the mid to late 80's, early 90's, the films were still around £80 to £85 per 600ft of film and sometimes, there were hundreds of copies printed.

It was never cheap to manufacture and print / stripe film.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on April 28, 2017, 05:43 PM:

Was there any American companies releasing 8mm films during the golden days? What are their names? All I see is Derann on ebay.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 28, 2017, 07:25 PM:

Red Fox Enterprises of Pennsylvania produced some truly spectacular Super 8mm films Robert.
Superb quality prints and many struck on LPP.

Derann later acquired all of the companies stock and negatives when they gave up on 8mm at the dawn of the video era.

Marketing Films had a place in New York.

Castle films i think were an American company from California that later became Universal 8 as was Columbia and Ken films etc etc.

Posted by Robert Lee (Member # 5776) on April 28, 2017, 08:07 PM:

Did Marketing Films, Universal 8, Columbia, Kent Films released films in LPP during the golden days? These studios are not well known for their LPP prints. I have never seen color print from Red Fox on ebay.

I purchased a Red Fox B/W Super 8 sound film titled Frontier Revenge. The quality was so bad I thought the source was a video tape because i saw static/horizontal lines like those on VHS.

Does anyone know what percent of the price goes to pay licensing fees of the movie?

[ April 29, 2017, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Robert Lee ]

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