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Author
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Topic: Super 8 stereo? Hmmmm ...
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted October 31, 2017 11:50 AM
OK, as all you fine folks know, I am a champion for all things super 8, and I always will be ...
However ...
I have to confess that, as a general rule, super 8 stereo really isn't all that hot. I have a few super 8 films that even have a re-record by a certain really good fellow in the super 8 community, and no matter how hard he tried, with the existing two track magnetic, well, the balance stripe never REALLY sounds all that hot.
Now, the mono sound can be incredibly good. I just received a vintage print of CE3K 400ft digest, and the mono sound was great as with many other mono magnetic tracks.
... but I have to admit, I've never really been enamored with stereo super 8. I'm sure that there are no doubt many out there who have great stereo recordings on the're films and hey, I even have top of the line stereo super 8 projectors but I have to admit that, when it comes to buying, for instance Derann scope features of titles, stereo versions are not really a must.
You're thoughts, ladies and gentlemen! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Paul Adsett
Film God
Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted October 31, 2017 12:24 PM
With top quality stripe, super 8 stereo can be very good indeed, but you need to record and play back on the same machine to get the very best results.
Also, if you use headphones for listening, you will find that the difference between mono and stereo is like night and day, particularly for musical films.
Unfortunately many of the Derann films in later years suffered from very poor stripe quality, with drop out particularly evident on the narrow balance stripe.
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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj
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Tom Photiou
Film God
Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted October 31, 2017 12:53 PM
Osi what projector do you use?
The only reason i asked is this,
Remember my short ownership of T610 stereo? The balance track never worked and the general sound output compared to the 1200HD i have used all my collecting life was in comparison only average in terms of actual sound output, it also had a fair bit of hiss/humm on films that required a little more volume, something i have never heard on the HD.
I have also been told that the sound on the balance track will not be as good as track one, that is understandable when you look at the size of the magnetic track, however, i also did a demo for the suppliers benefit using my 1200HD with a twin track recording, When i switch from track one to track two as it was running there was very little difference on the Elmo in the quality and volume, however, this is NOT a knock the Bauer, i did like the machine, it looks good, and runs soooooo quite its heard to believe it running a film, however, it did prove that all machines have there ups and downs, i have stuck with the 1200HD and although i have a few stereo films i simply project ALL our films via the AUX out, using a good old Pioneer amp and the sound, while twin track mono, is fantastic in my view. The separation of stereo is of no bother to us & has not been in 35 years of collecting and showing films. As long as the sound is very good the picture for cine is my priority ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Osi Osgood
Film God
Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted November 01, 2017 11:13 AM
Tom ...
As a general rule, I use my EUMIG 926 stereo first, as the EUMIG has very nice stereo reproduction and then, in a pinch, I'll use the CHINON 9500 which i luckily have one of the models with the left and right channel RCA jacks so pluggin it into the equalizer and then from there to the Radio Shack vintage dolby processor is very easy and gives me the best outcome, sound-wise.
i must say that the best audio quality i have ran into, stereo or mono, is my recording done by Lance Alspaugh, a true genius of the super 8 hobby, who did a stereo recording for my "Return of the Sith", but even in that instance, the balance stripe was "in and out" in quality and there was just nothing that Lance could do about it (that being, it wasn't his fault, it was just a lousy balance stripe).
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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "
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Gary Crawford
Jedi Master Film Handler
Posts: 979
From: Manassas, VA. USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted November 01, 2017 03:26 PM
Stereo on Super 8 can range from ugly to spectacular, just like mono Super 8 soundtracks. With good stripes, expert recording using the best source mix and with good original recording that uses stereo well....the results can be REALLY good. That is, if the projector we use to show the film has good, well aligned playback heads and the sound system we use is in good shape. A lot of if's. I've had an expert in California re-record many of my films....with truly spectacular, remarkable results.
....and not only with modern films.
Back in the earlier days of stereo and scope, soundtracks did not limit dialog to the so called "center" track, but actually followed actors back and forth across the screen. The best stereo film I have is the scope feature, There's No Business Like Show Business which uses the full extent of stereo and the stereo on super 8 adds hundreds of dollars to the value of the film for me...and immeasurable extra pleasure in viewing it.
Some films, however, don't seem to benefit from stereo at all, but there are so many many variables involved. I've found that the super 8 format and stripe, etc...is not the main reason that stereo doesn't work. When it DOES work......WOW!!!
As to recording on the same machine that you use to show the film....that has a pro and a con. The pro is that the critical head alignment is the same for record and playback. The con is that if there is even a slight speed variation or wow in the speed of the projector, the "wow" effect is doubled...once when the film is recorded on the machine, and then again when the film is run. You might not notice it when you run a film recorded professionally on a steady machine, but when the effect is doubled, it can become quite noticeable.
So...I'm sad that the newest releases on coming on polyester, which doesn't have the balance stripe.
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Tom Photiou
Film God
Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted November 01, 2017 04:06 PM
We have two fims that were re-recorded into stereo when i bought them,
Grease, the scope feature
T2 the feature,
I definatly agree that the sound is superb on both, especially the music on Grease, my only thing about it all is that after 35 years of collecting and with no extra equipment i dont really think i could spend the time or money to re-record a few films. We have been generally happy with the sound on the film as , (already mentioned), we show films via a decent pioneer stereo amp with a pair of excellent 8 ohm wharfdale speakers.
Obviously it would be great to have some done, Snowman, Madagascar Penguins, and a few trailers. I do only use the Elmo ST1200HD and the Eumig 822 sonomatic and 810D &,(i think im right in saying this), none of these would be ideal for the job.
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Bill Brandenstein
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1632
From: California
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted November 10, 2017 07:48 PM
Magnetic recording is a very particular and peculiar science. Off the top of my head, the variables include the wiring, circuitry, equalization electronics, bias frequency, bias level, head depth, head condition, azimuth, tape formulation, and surface condition. Presuming the components were all in good working order, any one of these being out of adjustment will affect the result quite audibly. Copy from one magnetic source to another (yep, that's Derann) and you introduce two full sets of variables. Increase the duplication speed (yep, that's Derann) and you multiply the flaws exponentially.
The only stereo print I have from Derann is Fantasia 2000. The stereo sound is abominable. After recording it into the computer, I was looking for a uniform azimuth error or delay that was putting the center-channel "dialogue" into the surround speakers. Nope, wanders all over the place. Frequency response not great, not horrible. And that's one of Derann's BETTER sound jobs.
If you want great sound with Super 8, use the ESS Pulse system on the GS-1200 and run digital sound along with the print. A WORLD of difference.
We all know that a re-record from a digital source usually makes for a great improvement too, even on the same analog mag stripe. So what does that say about the mastering and duplicating equipment for our Super 8 movies? It was often only passable, if not simply poor.
Sure, there are exceptions, but in general 1980s mag film handling was simply unable to use the format to its full capabilities.
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