8mm Forum: Longing for Double 8 Ektachrome

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Topic: Longing for Double 8 Ektachrome

Bryan Chernick
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Bothell, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2010

posted August 15, 2019 11:09 AM

Now that we have the new Ektachrome in Super 8 and 16mm the prospect of getting it in Regular 8mm is looking better since companies like Wittner Cinetec can perforate it from 16mm stock. Since I'm down to my last roll of the old Double 8mm Ektachrome I decided to send Wittner Cinetec a message to see what is going on with that, this was their response:

quote:
Dear Bryan Chernick,

thank you for your message.

In case we can obtain 16mm NP from Kodak (NP = not perforated), we are
willing to perforate Double 8 film from it.

But currently Kodak has not agreed to supply any 16mm NP.
We will try again in several month.
Maybe when they have the standard products on auto pilot, they will be open
to special orders (hopefully).
We will see.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Best regards

Ingolf Joost
Wittner Cinetec GmbH & Co. KG
Beaulieu Deutschland

Let's hope Kodak comes through for them.

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013

posted August 15, 2019 11:30 AM

Interesting, I didn't know you had to start from unperfored 16 stock to get double 8 film. Since the difference is "only" that there is the double of perforations, I thought there was a machine that did those extra perforations from double perforations 16 mm stock. You learn something every day...

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Dominique

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Bryan Chernick
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Bothell, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2010

posted August 15, 2019 01:57 PM

I think there is someone that converts double perforated 16mm to double 8mm but he must have a different machine. I can't remember who it was that did it, it may have been mentioned here or on another forum.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 15, 2019 07:01 PM

Surely Dom is correct here. You would think that all you need is a regular 16mm perforator just set to put the perforations in one half frame out of phase with the existing 16mm double perforated stock. What's the problem?

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

Posts: 7016
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 15, 2019 07:36 PM

The only thing I'd be concerned about is if your starting point wasn't advanced (within tolerances) half a 16mm frame height from the existing perfs, you could get some mighty rough-running film!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017

posted August 16, 2019 12:01 AM

That's exactly what I had seen once, a 8mm stock (extremely poorly) re-perforated from standard double perf. 16mm stock. The misalignment is more than enough to cause the image to "dance" wildly around the screen [Embarrassed]

.

(Well, I should had kept it as a prime example instead of throwing it away years ago.)

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Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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Brian Fretwell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1785
From: London, UK
Registered: Jun 2014

posted August 16, 2019 03:19 AM

Larry at LGP had a perforator that converted double perf 16mm to standard 8. He couldn't get anyone to buy it (as far as I know) when he left the Raynor's Lane premises. It needed three phase electricity and to be bolted down to a concrete floor to be used.

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Bryan Chernick
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 654
From: Bothell, WA, USA
Registered: Mar 2010

posted August 17, 2019 10:42 AM

Without even asking Wittner sent me this answer as to why the have to use non perforated stock.

quote:
as you did inquire about the manufacture of Double 8 film and this question frequently arises, I enclose my answer as well. You and your colleagues may find this information helpful. You are allowed to publish the question and my reply, if desired.

What about re-perforating single-perforated 16mm film? For example, adding
another set of perforations on single-perforated film (such as the new Kodak
Ektachrome) so that it becomes double 8 perforated. Is that possible?

We experimented in the past with exactly what you describe.
But the results of those experiments were negative.
It is not possible to do this - at least if you are interested in good
quality!
(if you are looking for rhytmically shaking pictures, this may be an
option - in theory. We do not offer this)

To achieve a good perforation / registration of frame, the distance between
perforartion holes must be 100% identical.
This can't be achieved with this technique. You need to start from 16mm NP.

The 16mm 1R camera film available is 0.2994 perforation pitch.
But R8 is per definition 0.1500
This does not fit.
In theory you could re-perforate 16mm film with a pitch of 0.3000 to R8.
But this is not available as a camera film. This would be printfilm then.

Furthermore TAC is start shrinking the day it leaves the factory.
So even using 0.3000 TAC film - it is nearly impossible to meet the real
pitch to add the additional perforations at the correct distance from/to the
existing holes.

So we abandoned this idea / project completely.
It is not possible to use this "trick" if a good perforation quality is the
goal.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Best regards

Ingolf Joost
Wittner Cinetec GmbH & Co. KG
Beaulieu Deutschland

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Larry L Blissett Jr
Junior
Posts: 5
From: Fenton, MI, USA
Registered: Jun 2019

posted August 19, 2019 06:07 AM

They probably will do their best to keep ektachrome d8 from ever being available. They make way too much on their super 8mm offering.

Considering you can get B&W standard d8 film for $19 a roll or better, if they came up with d8 ektachrome at typical kodak prices of likely $40 per roll they won't sell much and probably worry it will clash with their super 8 sales and the future super 8 camera they are trying to get to market.

Why offer d8 film with millions of cheap cameras available when they are going to be pushing a terribly overpriced super 8 camera that needs buyers.

The price of their super 8 camera will make it available to people with money to throw away and professionals that will make it back on the first film. I have no idea what they are thinking but it seems they are doing exactly the opposite of what made kodak great, cheap but usable cameras with the real money being made from reasonably priced film sales.

Now they are going with an astronomically priced camera along with an astronomically priced film/development scheme. Smells like a disaster to me........

--------------------
Larry

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013

posted August 19, 2019 06:53 AM

I wonder how the sales of Ektachrome go. Kodak seem to sell their super 8 cartidges in small quantities to European re-sellers which makes the price higher than needed. Buying directly from US sellers is cheaper although there are post and packing costs. Is there a way to know how many films are manufactured and how many are sold, say each month ?

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Dominique

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted August 19, 2019 08:22 AM

Larry, somehow I don't think that super 8 Kodak camera will ever be see the light of day.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Larry L Blissett Jr
Junior
Posts: 5
From: Fenton, MI, USA
Registered: Jun 2019

posted August 20, 2019 07:25 AM

Paul, I think we'll be more likely to see a unicorn than the kodak super 8 camera. Wonder if they'll survive the next bankruptcy. Very sad.....

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Larry

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