8mm Forum: Using a 16mm Kodak Pageant MK4 to run Std. 8 Mag track sound?

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Topic: Using a 16mm Kodak Pageant MK4 to run Std. 8 Mag track sound?

Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted April 16, 2005 06:22 PM

In theory if the sound separation is the same for 16mm and Std. 8 sound prints, is it possible to run Regular 8 magnetic sound film with perfect lip sync
on a Kodak Pageant MK4 16mm projector?
If so, is it possible to modify the 16 Pageants to run the Std. 8 film?

Regards,
Michael

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 17, 2005 08:16 AM

First of all, you'd have to completely remove and replace the apature plate, and much of the gearing, sprocket teeth, etc.,

Next you'd find that even if the offset in sound is the same in terms of frames, it's not the same in terms of distance -- super 8 frames are 1/2 the size of 16mm frames, so the distance to the sound head should be 1/2 that of the distance to a 16mm sound head (assuming that the # of frames is the same).

Sounds like a massive job -- you're much better off buying a super 8 projector....

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted April 17, 2005 01:15 PM

Steven, he was talking about standard 8 sound films - now I'm thinking that with some modifications esp. to the gate, this just could work since standard 8mm is really just one half of 16mm with double perforation. So the claw and sprocket teeth etc. should transport it fine, thing is how do you keep the 8mm film going in a 16mm wide film path without it weaving side to side [Big Grin]

and how do you explain to your viewers why there are two images on top of each other, taking up the left half of your screen, while the right half is just white light (as there is no film in the other half of your gate) [Wink]

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 20, 2005 09:26 PM

There are a few problems with this theory.

1. A 16mm pull down of .3000 will pull 8mm film two frames at a time so it'll be double speed and the action will show two consecutive frames on the screen at the same time.

2. You'll have to mask the aperture to half. If you mask it to 1/4 then you'll be skipping every other frame and running it at double speed.

3. The magnetic sound on regular 8mm is on the sprocket edge. The MK4 plays magnetic film with a 100/25/50 mill stripe on the sound track size so the heads are in the wrong place.

An easier solution (if it is one at all) would be to find one of the old Bolex Tri Film sound projectors which will run 16mm optical, 9.5mm optical and 8mm silent. Then with the 8mm fittings and a few new intermediate guide rollers and a mag head you could devise a machine to play regular8 sound.

I think in practice it will be far easier to find a Kodak Sound 8 (model B or C) on ebay or a Fairchild Cinephonic regular 8mm (be prepared to replace the timing belt) or a Eumig projector (I have no personal experience with those) or a Sears Regular 8mm sound projector (made by Bell & Howell and based on their Director Series).

BTW even if you could slow down the MK4 to half speed, you still have to figure a way to make the pull down change from .3000 to .1500.

John

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 20, 2005 09:26 PM

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted April 20, 2005 10:12 PM

Wow, a lot of good points there, none of which I had even thought about, and I thought I'd covered them all! [Big Grin]

Let's just say this whole thing isn't a very good idea in practical terms [Smile]

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted April 26, 2005 04:50 PM

Thanks John,

This was extremely helpful advice,
and it has saved me alot of heartache.
Your helpfulness and advice is valued immensely.

Kind regards,
Michael

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted April 26, 2005 10:04 PM

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted April 27, 2005 11:26 PM

I have no idea why my answer posted twice -- that is UNLESS I used the 8mm button on my trackball in the 16mm forum so it filled the .1500 pulldown twice to fill the .3000 16mm pitch.

Just a guess--it's probably some computer thing thou.

John

Thanks to all that "pitched" their remarks.

John, that quote is definitely a Classic.
It made me smile [Big Grin]

Best,
Michael

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